[MTUCache]

Originally Posted by kazoopilot

Also, where is all the radioactive waste from all the nuke plants going to go?

Umm... the moon?

No. Seriously. This brilliant idea just flashed into my head. We're going back there anyway, right? Might as well take some baggage with us.

Honestly, I'd much rather have to contend with the nuclear waste and cooling ponds than the alternative (fossil fuels, incinerators, etc). I'm currently of the opinion (although I admit, I'm uneducated in the matter) that the possibility of another meltdown is extremely small. Of course, air and train is also the safest methods of travelling and we've all seen the recent headlines on that. What kind of likelyhood of disaster are we looking at here? I honestly don't know.

It would honestly be refreshing to hear a politician talk about "green" energy that isn't fifty years away. A couple of reactors could replace 50+% of DTEs output within the next ten(?) years? Windmills and solar panels would be lucky to get to 10% in the next five decades.

[Cliffie]

Originally Posted by gwinn_raptor

The problem started a long time ago, when it became a "smart" idea to give tax breaks to companies overseas. Products are not made in America anymore. They are all made oversea. While this may keep the cost down for most goods, it does not help our economy or citizens at all.

Lets give companies tax breaks that move their operations overseas.......how the heck does that help us?

There's a lot more to it than tax breaks. If there had never been any such tax breaks, our jobs would still be flying away overseas. A factory worker in China makes about $1800 a year and considers that a good living wage. An American factory worker expects to be making at least twice that much a month. And let's not forget crazy benefits like the job bank, meritless raises, free legal representation, strike pay and unemployment compensation. As long as low-skilled factory jobs are some of the the best-paid and best-compensated positions in the country, factory jobs will continue to disappear here. Period.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by Cliffie

There's a lot more to it than tax breaks. If there had never been any such tax breaks, our jobs would still be flying away overseas. A factory worker in China makes about $1800 a year and considers that a good living wage. An American factory worker expects to be making at least twice that much a month. And let's not forget crazy benefits like the job bank, meritless raises, free legal representation, strike pay and unemployment compensation. As long as low-skilled factory jobs are some of the the best-paid and best-compensated positions in the country, factory jobs will continue to disappear here. Period.

And I thought it was the Kenneth Lays ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay ) and Bernard Lawrence "Bernie" Madoffs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff ) that were destroying our economic structures--not people who were making a "living wage" and supporting a family on $40K a year gross...

Guess I failed my economics class because I did not see the havoc being caused by "LOW-SKILLED FACTORY JOBS"... Now I see the error of my ways and that the TRULY EVIL that blue collar workers cause our AMERICAN WAY of life!!

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

Of course, there are natural cycles in business but can one really argue that manufacturing will not remain in one sector of the world for the foreseeable future...just how do you expect America to remain competitive with slave labor? I'm not sure you understood most of my article, not once did I state anything that could be regarded as "free market" yes, capitalism has and always will be in this country it is the reason their is wealth across the social strata...but to deny that things aren't changing drastically you would be blind..

I don't think you get my point, either. Compared to a poor country with low standard of living, any country with a higher standard of living is non-competitive by definition in a market with no protective tariffs and regulations.

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

Do you follow which companies the wealthiest people in the world are investing in right now? Its not manufacturing, and certainly not automotive...companies that will eventually rid our national dependence on oil and coal, that is the premise of green energy, yes...it will be our existence. I must say that this is just a "little more" than important, there is not enough oil to sustain our current mode of living much further into the future.

If your point is that the green energy (if it works, i.e. is cheaper eventually than oil) is the way of the future, I agree. If you're saying that it is going to save the American economy, think again. First, the countries that would benefit from it the most are China and India. Remember, we're losing jobs to them because they're cheaper (poorer), not because our energy is more expensive. If anything, the expensive energy helps us since we have better access to it. They are in a fierce competition with the US and the rest of the world for the remaining oil reserves, and there were reports that suggested that the (relative) lack of oil was one of the main obstacles to even more explosive expansion of these countries' economies. If "green energy" works it would remove that obstacle.

If your point is that we're going to see the manufacturing jobs replaced by "green energy" jobs, I don't agree with it either. Some jobs will be created, mainly in R&D. Some jobs, like the existing powerplant jobs, will be replaced. It will still be cheaper to manufacture solar panels and wind turbines in a poorer country.

Finally, we don't know if the "green energy" is going to work. The fact that the "wealthiest people" invest in these companies - if that's indeed a fact - may be simply because there's a shower of multibillion government subsidies coming and for a while these subsidies can be converted into profits. Also, with such a major investment there are bound to be some breakthroughs and somebody would make money. Doesn't mean the "green energy" won't go the way of E85 fuel (remember that ?)

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

Your telling us basic information, not solving an issue. The gears of capitalism are here to stay in America...don't expect to see our national tax code favor the poor. Maybe you were aware that you live in a country where 98% of ALL the liquid asses are held by the top 3% of the wealthiest people. There really was no "middle class" even before our auto segment collapsed.

The middle class is defined by the lifestyle and availability of health care, education, etc. Not by the bell curve. Look at it the other way, even somebody with a $2mln a year income is poor compared with Warren Buffett.

America has been a middle class country for the better part of XX century.

[michigan83]

The middle class is defined by the lifestyle and availability of health care, education, etc. Not by the bell curve. Look at it the other way, even somebody with a $2mln a year income is poor compared with Warren Buffett.

America has been a middle class country for the better part of XX century.

THANK YOU!!

To say that the majority of Americans are anything BUT middle class is laughable.

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by michigan83

THANK YOU!!

To say that the majority of Americans are anything BUT middle class is laughable.

Laughable? Whats laughable about more than 1 Million manufacturing jobs leaving Michigan i the last 10 years? Jobs that pay 50-75K a year (wouldn't you constitute that as middle class wages?) The "amount" of income that constitutes a middle class lifestyle is debatable, but the average wage in Michigan is much lower than that...precisely why that range of income is considered "middle class". Tell me what state in the US has an average per capita income of 50-75K? You wont find it....and if you do it will be due to white collar work in bigger cities.

[Ummagumma]

This was not the point that michigan83 made, I think he/she simply objected to you stating earlier that there was no majority middle class in this country. The current erosion of middle class is indeed not laughable.

Anyway, let's not turn this into an endless and pointless debate over who said what. I read somewhere that there was more billionaires in Mexico than in the comparably sized Germany; this of course was due to the rest of the country being very poor. I believe that the only way to prevent the "mexicanization" of the US (and the rest of the developed world) is by enacting and enforcing "fair trade" laws, as opposed to the so-called "free trade" oxymoron. We need new tariffs, taxes and other regulations that prevent using poverty as the main weapon of competition; after all, the countries like China are not shy to put all kinds of tariffs and restrictive regulations in the way of Western products, to engage in currency manipulation, etc. I also believe that this will not happen as long as the Americans remain so politically and economically ignorant, and so easily manipulated away from the real issues by the non-issues that both parties and the media are so good at inventing.

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

This was not the point that michigan83 made, I think he/she simply objected to you stating earlier that there was no majority middle class in this country. The current erosion of middle class is indeed not laughable.

Anyway, let's not turn this into an endless and pointless debate over who said what. I read somewhere that there was more billionaires in Mexico than in the comparably sized Germany; this of course was due to the rest of the country being very poor. I believe that the only way to prevent the "mexicanization" of the US (and the rest of the developed world) is by enacting and enforcing "fair trade" laws, as opposed to the so-called "free trade" oxymoron. We need new tariffs, taxes and other regulations that prevent using poverty as the main weapon of competition; after all, the countries like China are not shy to put all kinds of tariffs and restrictive regulations in the way of Western products, to engage in currency manipulation, etc. I also believe that this will not happen as long as the Americans remain so politically and economically ignorant, and so easily manipulated away from the real issues by the non-issues that both parties and the media are so good at inventing.

Yes I think we are getting a bit off topic in this thread but.....I think a great deal of what you say is true however in terms of our macro society I belive the tax structure is the direct cause for such unfair distrubution of wealth in the US. Not only has it (since inception of the US) favored the wealthy, its incredibly difficult to climb from one class to another. I agree many American's are completley in the dark regarding issues that surround our future, and also being spoon fed media pundit mix. I think any change that comes to this country will be done by the people, not by the government.

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

Yes I think we are getting a bit off topic in this thread but.....I think a great deal of what you say is true however in terms of our macro society I belive the tax structure is the direct cause for such unfair distrubution of wealth in the US. Not only has it (since inception of the US) favored the wealthy, its incredibly difficult to climb from one class to another. I agree many American's are completley in the dark regarding issues that surround our future, and also being spoon fed media pundit mix. I think any change that comes to this country will be done by the people, not by the government.

Not as long as the average Joe takes stereotypes and runs with them instead of educating himself & using whatever stuff he's got in his skull . And not as long as abortions are more important than jobs.

I am sick of Republicans and tired of Democrats; I guess at this point I'd rather be tired than sick, but I would really like to have a real choice.

[Cliffie]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

And I thought it was the Kenneth Lays ( Kenneth Lay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and Bernard Lawrence "Bernie" Madoffs ( Bernard Madoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) that were destroying our economic structures--not people who were making a "living wage" and supporting a family on $40K a year gross...

Guess I failed my economics class because I did not see the havoc being caused by "LOW-SKILLED FACTORY JOBS"... Now I see the error of my ways and that the TRULY EVIL that blue collar workers cause our AMERICAN WAY of life!!

I never said that blue-collar workers are evil. I said they cannot compete with blue-collar workers in other countries who can easily live on a tenth of what ours make. If you think big businesses have any loyalty to local talent, I have a news flash for you.