[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

This is the reason why blacks find it so hard to make progress in this country. The poor 3rd world immigrant can come to this country, adapt, and thrive in one generation. But then of course, he "sold out" by becoming an American citizen, embracing the American culture, working hard, and leaving his old country behind. But so many members of the black community start out with more but would rather hang on to a culture that is almost universally looked down upon by mainstream society and then complain about how they're discriminated against and can never improve their life due to what happened to their ancestors. Wake up -- most of the problem is that you won't assimilate into mainstream culture. You have every right to cling to a ghetto culture that will do nothing but hold you back but don't complain about your situation in life if you do.

Totally a misread of what is going on. It is the CULTURE that these immigrants BRING WITH THEM.....that leads to their success. It is not the adoption of American culture, which is largely rooted in individualism, which creates their success. They come from culture where they feel compeled to HONOR their parents and FAMILY with success and where failure is seen as SHAMING the family. Other culture have a more collective based system in which bringing honor to the clan, and not just oneself, is a major motivating factor in behavior. Here in America its all about the individual. Youth don't care about shaming the family and the family does not care about shaming their youth. I hear so many youth talk negatively to their parents that it just amazes me. I talk to my co-workers and they tell me about their kids calling them the "B" word, telling them to shut up and the like. In Asian cuture, this rarely goes on and where it does, you can bet that failure follows.

What you need to realize is that black people in America were stripped of their African culture, long, long ago. The only cultural foundation of black America is poverty and miseducation at the hands of the larger society which sought to denigrate them and keep them as second class citizens.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by kazoopilot

Someone has to take the first step. I understand that the injustices of the past contributed to the situation of today, but eventually, we have to get over the past. We need to start moving towards a better, more diverse, more open society, and that means taking proactive steps to end the culture of self-segregation.



Or maybe it's because they hear about the past from their families, churches, and communities, wanting to perpetuate the victimhood. No one who is alive today was a slave, and only the most elderly had parents who were slaves. Slavery is ancient history. The past is past, and it needs to be gotten over as soon as possible. We must let go of the past if we want to survive.



You see this with every ethnic group, including whites. When was the last time you saw a white sidekick in a movie?



I agree with most of your points, but I do have issue with your use of the term "the white man." It was a very, VERY small percentage of white people who owned slaves, and many whites fought to end slavery.



Marry outside of their race? So are they marrying a chimpanzee, or a white-tailed deer? There is only one human race. My race is human. If you mean marrying outside of their ethnicity, then that is a different thing; and honestly, I don't see what's wrong with that.




Only you can change (with God's help, of course). It's about personal responsibility. Those who want a different way of life can find one.



I'm NOT from Detroit. I grew up in a fairly affluent, nearly all-white rural/exurban area (nowhere near Detroit). I went to virtually all-white schools. I come from a two-parent household, and both of my parents have college degrees. My family, especially on my mom's side, is not really culturally black (even though they are ethnically black). My family deeply values education. I'm not "selling out" or denying myself, I'm just not culturally black. I don't fit into that culture any more than I do into Southeast Asian or Polynesian culture. It's totally foreign to me. My culture is mainstream American.

What does it mean to “get over the past”? If I am not diligent in paying my bills over a period of years and subsequently develop poor credit, how successful would I be in trying to get a potential future creditor to “Just get over the past”, where I was irresponsible? The worst predictor of future behavior, except for all others, is past behavior. The past is all we got to go on as a humans and animals we rely on the lessons of the past to promote our survival in the present and future. We are equipped with memory, as beings, for purpose of survival. To use an old cliché’, “those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it”. Thus, the concept of “getting over the past”, defies our programming as species. We NEED the past so that we do not have to reinvent the wheel or repeat atrocities, which humanity has learned.

What society needs is reconciliation and repair of the legacy impact of past wrongs upon the present. What keeps race and the past an issue with black is the state of continued racial inequality, which is the legacy of past legalized targeting and oppressing of black people. When legalized oppression ended some 40 years ago, after reigning over 300 years, this society should have produced a Marshall plan to target and rebuild the black community by any and all means necessary. That did not happen because to simply get America to NOT oppress black people, had to come through the defiance of the will of the people by virtue of acts of congress and executive orders. If racial equality and law changes were ever ballot box issues where the white majority had to vote on it, progress would have been a lot slower coming. Even, today, when Affirmative Action becomes a ballot box issue, like it recently has in Michigan and other states, it’s voted out of existence, because many whites see any effort to target blacks as discrimination against whites. However, the question is how can you solve a problem or discrepancy or inequality without discrimination? When things are unequal, you cannot treat all the same and expect the inequality to go away. Equality is corrupted by treating one side differently and hence equality is restored by treating the sides differently, in the opposite way.

I simply do not buy into this self segregation perceptions of yours. Blacks have been the INTEGRATORS. For you to suggest that self segregation is a problem of the black community, despite the fight for integration and despite or residential moves to majority white communities, reeks of ignorance or disingenuousness. My experience is that black folks usually only have a problem with groups who demonstrate that they have a problem with us. We are reactive. That does not mean that our humanity is somehow morally superior in regards to manifesting prejudice, because we are not. However, it’s simply the fact that the problem that black people have with most groups is born from their treatment of us. No one wants to be where they feel disrespected and unwanted so blacks gravitate towards groupings where they feel like they fit in.

One has to remember that the oppression of black people was global and not limited to slavery. It’s the doctrine of white supremacy that has oppressed the black masses in this world from Africa to the Americas. People need to realize that the base of black humanity was assaulted and denigrated to the degree that a black person cannot look anywhere on this planet for an example of “Success”, in the form of a city-state or nation state. African was colonized and exploited for its resources by the Europeans. Most of the conflicts and wars in Africa are born from disputed over borders or borders drawn that grouped together rivals, for the purpose of European mineral needs. The peoples were divided to be conquered for their resources that went to increase the standard of living of Europeans. So black folks have nowhere to go to find inspiration in ourselves and the Western media paints a picture of Africa as backwards, corrupt, violent savages whose survival is dependent upon Western nations. Thus, many in West look at Africa and conclude that blacks in the West should be thankful that their ancestors were enslaved lest they be in Africa today starving or being chopped up in some war. There are many whites who do not believe that blacks were worse off in America than they would have been if they had never left Africa. They feel that America owes blacks nothing because life in Africa today is hell, but colonization fermented that hell.

I have to stop here but I could go on and on…….I just don’t think that the opportunity cost of doing so would make it worth the effort.

[electric_lady]

"It seems that whites with lower education are getting jobs while minorites with higher education have to end up moving out of state cause they can't find anything. "

This is absurd. I, along with too many of my white friends with bachelor's and master's degrees have left the state to find jobs. My college-educated white friends who remain in Michigan are either unemployed or working at minimum wage. It's not a race thing. It's an economy thing. If anything, certain companies' minority quotas have opened more jobs for minorities than whites. At my last job, a black woman retired and her position was not filled for six months. Why? Because they had to hire a minority and didn't have any qualified folks apply for the job. But they did have plenty of whites apply for it.
Let's not misunderstand the fact that NO ONE is getting ahead in Michigan.

[MTUCache]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

One has to remember that the oppression of black people was global and not limited to slavery. It’s the doctrine of white supremacy that has oppressed the black masses in this world from Africa to the Americas. People need to realize that the base of black humanity was assaulted and denigrated to the degree that a black person cannot look anywhere on this planet for an example of “Success”, in the form of a city-state or nation state. African was colonized and exploited for its resources by the Europeans. Most of the conflicts and wars in Africa are born from disputed over borders or borders drawn that grouped together rivals, for the purpose of European mineral needs. The peoples were divided to be conquered for their resources that went to increase the standard of living of Europeans. So black folks have nowhere to go to find inspiration in ourselves and the Western media paints a picture of Africa as backwards, corrupt, violent savages whose survival is dependent upon Western nations. Thus, many in West look at Africa and conclude that blacks in the West should be thankful that their ancestors were enslaved lest they be in Africa today starving or being chopped up in some war. There are many whites who do not believe that blacks were worse off in America than they would have been if they had never left Africa. They feel that America owes blacks nothing because life in Africa today is hell, but colonization fermented that hell.

All good points, and while I agree with most of what has been said in this topic, I feel compelled to point out that blacks are arguably not the most persecuted race in the world. Many other groups could lay just as valid a claim on that title, for a much longer time. Likewise many of those groups have overcome that history to thrive today while others have not.

The quote above, referencing the atrocities of more than a century ago (mostly more than two centuries ago) is laughable to a Jew from Europe. I'm not Hebrew, and I don't pretend to speak for them, but I have to imagine that they, as a culture would find most of that reasoning a poor excuse for the state of today's black youth. I can assure you that they weren't feeling much inspiration in central Europe even as recently as 60 years ago, and are being persecuted almost as violently now in the Middle East.

To me it seems an obvious fact that most of the people living in the worst areas of urban-poverty are there out of choice. Yes, much of that choice is caused by ignorance, but having witnessed many forms of poverty, I can tell you for certain that the poor white folks who live in the backwoods of distant Michigan still are able to provide their children with a means to escape and make something of themselves, while having just as little or even less help from the government. Having very little money and no education does not mean you are forced to live among people who are bad influences on your children and a constant threat to your safety.

This painting with the broadest brush possible is quickly tiring, and I find it amazing that as this topic has progressed the posts have been getting longer and longer, more in-depth, and further from the original point of this topic. I'm sure I'll regret having anything to do with the conversation, but I felt that these points were important to bring up.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by MTUCache

All good points, and while I agree with most of what has been said in this topic, I feel compelled to point out that blacks are arguably not the most persecuted race in the world. Many other groups could lay just as valid a claim on that title, for a much longer time. Likewise many of those groups have overcome that history to thrive today while others have not.

The quote above, referencing the atrocities of more than a century ago (mostly more than two centuries ago) is laughable to a Jew from Europe. I'm not Hebrew, and I don't pretend to speak for them, but I have to imagine that they, as a culture would find most of that reasoning a poor excuse for the state of today's black youth. I can assure you that they weren't feeling much inspiration in central Europe even as recently as 60 years ago, and are being persecuted almost as violently now in the Middle East.

To me it seems an obvious fact that most of the people living in the worst areas of urban-poverty are there out of choice. Yes, much of that choice is caused by ignorance, but having witnessed many forms of poverty, I can tell you for certain that the poor white folks who live in the backwoods of distant Michigan still are able to provide their children with a means to escape and make something of themselves, while having just as little or even less help from the government. Having very little money and no education does not mean you are forced to live among people who are bad influences on your children and a constant threat to your safety.

This painting with the broadest brush possible is quickly tiring, and I find it amazing that as this topic has progressed the posts have been getting longer and longer, more in-depth, and further from the original point of this topic. I'm sure I'll regret having anything to do with the conversation, but I felt that these points were important to bring up.

Well, if one starts with the simple premise (you don't seem to be) that dismisses racial or ethnic supremacy, then any group that experience in degree and or kind what black people have experienced would logically be in the same situation as black peoples today. The only way an entity can endure the same degree of oppression, if not greater, and come out ahead of another entity is if one is arguing that one entity was naturally somehow superior to the other. One HAS to assume SUPERIORITY/INFERIORITY in your argument due to the fact that you have EQUALIZED the level of oppression, meaning that the ONLY causation for different outcomes is born from the variability in the NATURE(genetics/culture) of the entities oppressed.

I submit to you that most oppressed groups MIGRATED FROM their oppressors and the land of their oppressors, by finding a more promising land. Few oppressed groups have risen to equality while remaining in the lands and among their traditional oppressors.

[Linksnut]

Wow, I thought the victim infirmity in Maryland was bad...glad I don't live in Michigan, it sounds worse

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Linksnut

Wow, I thought the victim infirmity in Maryland was bad...glad I don't live in Michigan, it sounds worse

I get a kick out of people when they expose their hand by their use of words. Instead of using terms like “Victim” and “Blame”, how about speaking scientifically using scientific terms like CAUSE and EFFECT and ACTIONS and REACTIONS? To a person like you, Actions begetting reaction, a law of nature, is “victimology”. In a universe governed under YOUR laws of nature, actions do not beget reactions and nothing is related to nothing else and the present exist totally unrelated to events in the past. Rain falls up and not down. People die before they are born and the sun is one big block of ice….Yes....I am glad you live where you live too.

[Sparrow_temp]

There are some people whose minds are so poisoned by their environment that they cannot distinguish between cause and effect. They blame racism on why they cannot get a job in a terrible economy. For the few jobs that are out there, they refuse to "sell out" and portray themselves as the candidate that the employer is looking for. Is the cause that this candidate didn't get the job really racism? Isn't there a consequence to thumbing your nose at mainstream society?

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

There are some people whose minds are so poisoned by their environment that they cannot distinguish between cause and effect. They blame racism on why they cannot get a job in a terrible economy. For the few jobs that are out there, they refuse to "sell out" and portray themselves as the candidate that the employer is looking for. Is the cause that this candidate didn't get the job really racism? Isn't there a consequence to thumbing your nose at mainstream society?

Being prepared for an interview and selling-out are two totally different situations. I dont know about you, but if I was an employer I would rather hire someone who is confident, sure of him or herself, knows the position and shows a knowledge about the position, the company, and has the skills, knowledge, and confidence to prove it. I would not hire someone who is putting on a front or trying to be someone they are not just to get hired... Racism shouldn't have anything to do with it.... I dont think many employers would want a sell-out, but hey if the so called sell-out is who they're looking for than it is what it is, maybe he or she was more qualified, at least I hope so....

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

I use the term ghetto culture to represent the negative aspects of the inner city/black culture that are holding people back. It's not just a black thing. You probably got every ethnicity present but blacks dominate it and have made it their own identity.

And congratulations in pointing to racism as your first response. It kind of illustrates my point. It's always easy to throw that out and almost impossible to prove that you're not. It gets tiring to have that as the "I win" button anytime there's a criticism of the black community.

If anything you proved my point. If I had said prejudice versus racist would it have made a big difference????

Prejudice is a preconceived belief, opinion or judgment especially toward a group of people characterized by their race, social class, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age or religion.

I think prejudice is a better term use than racism But what's the difference????? Seriously???

rac⋅ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
Use racism in a Sentence
See web results for racism
See images of racism
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.



"Discrimination is a sociological term refering to treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group that is taken in consideration based on class or category. In some countries, controversial attempts such as racial quotas have been used to redress negative effects of discrimination."

If we had said discrimination versus racism in the workplace would that have made a bigger difference as well????

When you and other individuals categorize all blacks for using racism as a scapegoat then basically you're proving our point. That is a stereotype that only contributes to the challenges many African Americans face in this country.... Saying that all black people call out racism when something goes wrong is racism isnt it???? You and others may be getting tired of it, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it sure isnt a porcupine... You may have meant Ghetto Culture in association with the negativity that takes place in urban America, but you did not say that in the previous post so one would assume that your calling black culture "ghetto culture." I noticed I wasnt the only to come to that conclusion....

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

I stand by everything I said. And note I didn't pick any specific ethnicity on the immigrant example and try and face one off against another. I thought it was pretty damn clear that the message was that a person can come to this country with nothing and succeed if they work hard and try to assimilate. Those that dwell on what happened to their ancestors, blame racism on everything bad that happens to them, glorify the ghetto culture, and refuse to assimilate into mainstream culture are going to find things difficult.

Again, I know you didnt pinpoint any particular ethnicity, but really think about it, immigrants who come to America come from somewhere, do you actually think that they are totally aware of American culture where they come from???? When they come here yes they have to adapt, that wasnt what I said... I said TOTALLY assimilating to one culture is selling-out, and I stand by that, but truthfully Im not gonna treat you any different if you did, but thats just me. You gotta find out who you are on your own.... Only God can judge....

Also, not everyone is going to blame racism on everything bad that happens to them, but racism still exist in America you cannot deny that. All you have to do is turn on your television and see some (not all) of the protestors who are against Obama's health care plan, I mean we're talking about health care, what does African Voodoo have to do with anything????

No one should have to sell their soul just to make a buck... What makes mainstream culture better than other cultures???? the money, fame, power and or popularity???? Thats the IT factor that I feel is destroying this country anyway.... No one is perfect, but when you look down on others and expect them to be more like you then that makes you insensitive to their problems.... I've noticed that about alot on this thread... I love this country, we have been blessed, but we still have problems that seems to keep getting pushed under the table...

Originally Posted by Shizzles

I agree w/ you, but then again, the hypocracy comes in when white people don't want to embrace your culture.

I couldnt have said that better myself either....

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

There are some people whose minds are so poisoned by their environment that they cannot distinguish between cause and effect. They blame racism on why they cannot get a job in a terrible economy. For the few jobs that are out there, they refuse to "sell out" and portray themselves as the candidate that the employer is looking for. Is the cause that this candidate didn't get the job really racism? Isn't there a consequence to thumbing your nose at mainstream society?

What you do not realize is that these communities had problems getting jobs when the economy was supposedly at full employment. People complained of racism in employment during the best of times. Certainly if racism existed as an employment impediment during the best of times that such is an impediment in the worst of times. Why would such decrease. Moreover, since so many people believe that blacks are the laziest and most problematic employees, who I have heard lamented on forums quite a bit, then obviously such prevalent opinion leads to discrimination in the workplace as some of these people with such an opinion are in positions that give them hiring authority. It just does not logically follow that with so much negative opinion of blacks as workers, by whites, that such opinions by whites would not result in discrimination in hiring. You cannot bad mouth people and then attempt to argue that these bad opinions so widely held does not result in discrimination.

In regards to your "sell out theory"....you just don't get it. In some places people simply DO NOT KNOW how to dress for an interview. You cannot assume that people know what you know. In other cases people don't have the proper clothes for an interview. Its like when Katrina hit New Orleans many people just could not understand why people just did not get in their cars and drive away. Well....there are people so poor that they don't have transportation. But if you are not that poor you cannot relate and it seems stupid that people just did not get into their cars and drive away. The truth is that many of you don't have a damn clue of what life is really like in the "inner city". You base your opinion on what is or would be true in the world you exist in and apply that to a world where the realities simply do not match up. If people knew what you knew and believe what you believe and had what you had......the probably would do what you would do or what you did. You cannot walk in their shoes and they cannot walk in yours.