[Sparrow_temp]

Dr. Martin Luther King wanted a color blind society. We're there -- we're beyond there. We're now to the point where government and businesses have to have quota's and use "affirmative action"/reverse racism to prevent law suits. These policies are now the cause of a lot of new racism. Was the latest minority hire on his/her merits or was it an affirmative action hire? Guess what the assumption will be until proven differently.

You can't get to a color blind society and still have preferential treatment based on skin tone. You can't have an equal playing field and be responsible for your own actions and still pull out the victim card when it's convenient.

And sure, there's individual racism out there on all sides. There always will be but it's not institutionalized anymore. The closest you'll get to that is now against white conservatives. They're the one class which can still be openly mocked in polite society. You can legally pass them over for promotion or during the hiring process for any other minority in the name of affirmative action. I wonder if they'll get a victim card in another generation.

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

Here we go again, there is no victim card, there is no race card, there is only facts. Truthfully sir, if you gonna go that route, what if Dr. Martin Luther King did not fight for civil rights because someone told him not to pull the race card, slavery is over with, be happy about that now go to the back of the bus??? We probably would not be on here talking about this, no telling how worse it would be right now... However, the problem still exist so until situations get better, we're gonna keep talking about it.... So until that happens, get used to it.....

[lastonestanding]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Dr. Martin Luther King wanted a color blind society. We're there -- we're beyond there. We're now to the point where government and businesses have to have quota's and use "affirmative action"/reverse racism to prevent law suits. These policies are now the cause of a lot of new racism. Was the latest minority hire on his/her merits or was it an affirmative action hire? Guess what the assumption will be until proven differently.

You can't get to a color blind society and still have preferential treatment based on skin tone. You can't have an equal playing field and be responsible for your own actions and still pull out the victim card when it's convenient.

And sure, there's individual racism out there on all sides. There always will be but it's not institutionalized anymore. The closest you'll get to that is now against white conservatives. They're the one class which can still be openly mocked in polite society. You can legally pass them over for promotion or during the hiring process for any other minority in the name of affirmative action. I wonder if they'll get a victim card in another generation.

Your right about that you can't have a color blind society and still have preferential treatment, but the reason why the so-called "victim card" is even pulled is because the preferential treatment more than likely is going to help the person who fits the image of what the company is looking for rather than any minority in general. Thats why I mentioned earlier that its not what you know its who you know (or who knows you). Thats also, Im pretty sure, why the OP created this thread originally. I know you usually see the disclaimer on job posting saying Equal Opportunity, but thats just a disclaimer, nothing more. And as far as Affirmative Action, statistically its helped women in general more than it has African Americans in general.

Dr. Martin Luther King did fight for a color blind society, but it was for equal opportunity for all mankind and no we are not there. We've came a very long way by the grace of God, of course, but we're still not there. Just go up to about any African American in inner city Detroit and they'll tell you what they have to deal with on a day to day basis..... I personally feel discussions similar to this is very worthwhile and needed because we have a chance to learn something new and figure out how to go about making things different. Again there is no victim card, just reality, but this is my opinion and it is what it is.... We're probably never going to agree on this topic, but at the end if we're not happy with ourselves than something is wrong...

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by lastonestanding

Here we go again, there is no victim card, there is no race card, there is only facts. Truthfully sir, if you gonna go that route, what if Dr. Martin Luther King did not fight for civil rights because someone told him not to pull the race card, slavery is over with, be happy about that now go to the back of the bus??? We probably would not be on here talking about this, no telling how worse it would be right now... However, the problem still exist so until situations get better, we're gonna keep talking about it.... So until that happens, get used to it.....

You are assuming that he/she would have a problem with black progress being set back decades. I think he/she would be happy.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Dr. Martin Luther King wanted a color blind society. We're there -- we're beyond there. We're now to the point where government and businesses have to have quota's and use "affirmative action"/reverse racism to prevent law suits. These policies are now the cause of a lot of new racism. Was the latest minority hire on his/her merits or was it an affirmative action hire? Guess what the assumption will be until proven differently.

You can't get to a color blind society and still have preferential treatment based on skin tone. You can't have an equal playing field and be responsible for your own actions and still pull out the victim card when it's convenient.

And sure, there's individual racism out there on all sides. There always will be but it's not institutionalized anymore. The closest you'll get to that is now against white conservatives. They're the one class which can still be openly mocked in polite society. You can legally pass them over for promotion or during the hiring process for any other minority in the name of affirmative action. I wonder if they'll get a victim card in another generation.

Do you understand what a “dream” is? Yes, Dr King had a dream however a dream often represents a destination, but not the path. How could doctor king be for a color blind society while at the same time fight for the equality of the Negro? Dr. King explicitly pointed out the inequality of the Negro, which is hardly being color blind. If king was color blind he would have never mentioned the Negro and their suffering. Hence, king realized and demonstrated by his actions that bringing attention to and targeting efforts toward the Negro was the PATH that would lead to his dream destination of a color-blind society that would manifest ONLY after blacks had achieved racial equality and rid itself of the socioeconomic racial inequality that was the reaction to years of oppressive actions by this nation.

If you understand mathematics, then you realize the logic. An equality is represented by two sides separated by an “=” sign. For example: 5 = 5 is an equality and truth. This equality is corrupted when one side of the equation is treated different from the other. For example let’s add 2 to one side and not the other: 5 + 2 = 5. Now the equality has been turned into an inequality. Now, the question is how do you return the equation back to equality? Well, obviously in the past the right was discriminated against by not getting its “2” like the left side did, thus making the left side greater than the right. Therefore, the only logical way to restore the equality in the present or the future is for the right side to be favored by 2 going forward or for the left side to be diminished by at least 2 relative to what the right side gets. This is the ONLY logical way it can be done. In other words, you cannot correct the legacy of past discrimination without employing offsetting present and future discrimination. As unpleasant as it sounds, it’s the only logical and effective means of reconciliation and promoting equality.

Now of course most whites will never accept this logic, despite its truth. If whites truly believed in equality, then they would welcome their fair share of the burden of racism and discrimination and not have it fall disproportionately upon blacks. As much as some whites like to lament that racism works both ways…..it really does not. Whites disproportionately own companies, do the hiring, are the judges, loan officers…etc. There are 6 white people in this nation for every black person, roughly speaking. If only 16% of whites were racist in this nation, that would be 1 racist white person for every black man, women and child in this nation. These racist whites would often be company owners, hiring managers, judges, loan officers etc. They would like find a means to discriminate against blacks and go undetected. Now, if 16% of black people were racist, how many whites would that impact given that black folks are only 12% of the population and are disproportionately unemployed and poor? Blacks don’t have the POWER and the NUMBERS to deny whites opportunity, even if one accepted the proposition that blacks are just as racist as whites. The truth is that blacks are RESENTFUL of their history of mistreatment. It’s reactive. On the other hand, white racism has always been PROACTIVE. All that blacks have ever wanted in this nation is freedom and equality, yet, that quest pissed a whole lot of white folks off to the degree that they employed racism to keep blacks down.

Your position is truly Neo-racism. It seeks to prevent racial equality by preventing any targeting to undo the targeting of the past which created the inequality. If two people went to the emergency room, one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and the other with a broken finger, should they be treated equally? Would it be discriminatory to favor the person with the gunshot wound….by letting that person b e seen first and giving that person more attention? Would you file a law suit over such discrimination? Yet, despite the egregious socioeconomic condition of blacks relative to whites in this nation, such as poverty rate 3 times that of whites, to target blacks for special need and assistance is wrong. Many whites don’t mind seeing blacks in an acute state of inequality or need as long as whites don’t ever have to wait or take the back seat.

[Sparrow_temp]

Way to play up the racism thing again. I disagree so therefore I must be a racist and want nothing but to keep the black man down. The opportunities are there for all to pursue now. What's keeping people down is a victim mentality and a feeling of entitlement. It's a cultural problem (I referred to it as the ghetto culture). Get out of the inner city -- live by societal norms -- and a lot of the perceived racism disappears.

That being said -- things are tough all over at the moment and our politicians have sold us out for decades. I'm not so sure there's any recovery coming soon because of it regardless of what the stock market is saying.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You are assuming that he/she would have a problem with black progress being set back decades. I think he/she would be happy.

[Sparrow_temp]

This post basically says it all. It really says where this guy is coming from. I have to be a racist and he cannot be. I want a color blind society and he wants to right the wrongs of the past by creating new wrongs to balance the scale.

My response -- 2 wrongs don't make a right.
The equations you present are wrong in the fact that you can't carry the wrongs done against one person beyond that person's lifetime into another person. The slate is wiped clean when you're born.

Wealthy families may have it easier but unless you want to create a 100% inheritance tax (which is an interesting idea), poverty can't be an excuse since it affects all ethnicities.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Do you understand what a “dream” is? Yes, Dr King had a dream however a dream often represents a destination, but not the path. How could doctor king be for a color blind society while at the same time fight for the equality of the Negro? Dr. King explicitly pointed out the inequality of the Negro, which is hardly being color blind. If king was color blind he would have never mentioned the Negro and their suffering. Hence, king realized and demonstrated by his actions that bringing attention to and targeting efforts toward the Negro was the PATH that would lead to his dream destination of a color-blind society that would manifest ONLY after blacks had achieved racial equality and rid itself of the socioeconomic racial inequality that was the reaction to years of oppressive actions by this nation.

If you understand mathematics, then you realize the logic. An equality is represented by two sides separated by an “=” sign. For example: 5 = 5 is an equality and truth. This equality is corrupted when one side of the equation is treated different from the other. For example let’s add 2 to one side and not the other: 5 + 2 = 5. Now the equality has been turned into an inequality. Now, the question is how do you return the equation back to equality? Well, obviously in the past the right was discriminated against by not getting its “2” like the left side did, thus making the left side greater than the right. Therefore, the only logical way to restore the equality in the present or the future is for the right side to be favored by 2 going forward or for the left side to be diminished by at least 2 relative to what the right side gets. This is the ONLY logical way it can be done. In other words, you cannot correct the legacy of past discrimination without employing offsetting present and future discrimination. As unpleasant as it sounds, it’s the only logical and effective means of reconciliation and promoting equality.

Now of course most whites will never accept this logic, despite its truth. If whites truly believed in equality, then they would welcome their fair share of the burden of racism and discrimination and not have it fall disproportionately upon blacks. As much as some whites like to lament that racism works both ways…..it really does not. Whites disproportionately own companies, do the hiring, are the judges, loan officers…etc. There are 6 white people in this nation for every black person, roughly speaking. If only 16% of whites were racist in this nation, that would be 1 racist white person for every black man, women and child in this nation. These racist whites would often be company owners, hiring managers, judges, loan officers etc. They would like find a means to discriminate against blacks and go undetected. Now, if 16% of black people were racist, how many whites would that impact given that black folks are only 12% of the population and are disproportionately unemployed and poor? Blacks don’t have the POWER and the NUMBERS to deny whites opportunity, even if one accepted the proposition that blacks are just as racist as whites. The truth is that blacks are RESENTFUL of their history of mistreatment. It’s reactive. On the other hand, white racism has always been PROACTIVE. All that blacks have ever wanted in this nation is freedom and equality, yet, that quest pissed a whole lot of white folks off to the degree that they employed racism to keep blacks down.

Your position is truly Neo-racism. It seeks to prevent racial equality by preventing any targeting to undo the targeting of the past which created the inequality. If two people went to the emergency room, one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and the other with a broken finger, should they be treated equally? Would it be discriminatory to favor the person with the gunshot wound….by letting that person b e seen first and giving that person more attention? Would you file a law suit over such discrimination? Yet, despite the egregious socioeconomic condition of blacks relative to whites in this nation, such as poverty rate 3 times that of whites, to target blacks for special need and assistance is wrong. Many whites don’t mind seeing blacks in an acute state of inequality or need as long as whites don’t ever have to wait or take the back seat.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Do you understand what a “dream” is? Yes, Dr King had a dream however a dream often represents a destination, but not the path. How could doctor king be for a color blind society while at the same time fight for the equality of the Negro? Dr. King explicitly pointed out the inequality of the Negro, which is hardly being color blind. If king was color blind he would have never mentioned the Negro and their suffering. Hence, king realized and demonstrated by his actions that bringing attention to and targeting efforts toward the Negro was the PATH that would lead to his dream destination of a color-blind society that would manifest ONLY after blacks had achieved racial equality and rid itself of the socioeconomic racial inequality that was the reaction to years of oppressive actions by this nation.

If you understand mathematics, then you realize the logic. An equality is represented by two sides separated by an “=” sign. For example: 5 = 5 is an equality and truth. This equality is corrupted when one side of the equation is treated different from the other. For example let’s add 2 to one side and not the other: 5 + 2 = 5. Now the equality has been turned into an inequality. Now, the question is how do you return the equation back to equality? Well, obviously in the past the right was discriminated against by not getting its “2” like the left side did, thus making the left side greater than the right. Therefore, the only logical way to restore the equality in the present or the future is for the right side to be favored by 2 going forward or for the left side to be diminished by at least 2 relative to what the right side gets. This is the ONLY logical way it can be done. In other words, you cannot correct the legacy of past discrimination without employing offsetting present and future discrimination. As unpleasant as it sounds, it’s the only logical and effective means of reconciliation and promoting equality.

Now of course most whites will never accept this logic, despite its truth. If whites truly believed in equality, then they would welcome their fair share of the burden of racism and discrimination and not have it fall disproportionately upon blacks. As much as some whites like to lament that racism works both ways…..it really does not. Whites disproportionately own companies, do the hiring, are the judges, loan officers…etc. There are 6 white people in this nation for every black person, roughly speaking. If only 16% of whites were racist in this nation, that would be 1 racist white person for every black man, women and child in this nation. These racist whites would often be company owners, hiring managers, judges, loan officers etc. They would like find a means to discriminate against blacks and go undetected. Now, if 16% of black people were racist, how many whites would that impact given that black folks are only 12% of the population and are disproportionately unemployed and poor? Blacks don’t have the POWER and the NUMBERS to deny whites opportunity, even if one accepted the proposition that blacks are just as racist as whites. The truth is that blacks are RESENTFUL of their history of mistreatment. It’s reactive. On the other hand, white racism has always been PROACTIVE. All that blacks have ever wanted in this nation is freedom and equality, yet, that quest pissed a whole lot of white folks off to the degree that they employed racism to keep blacks down.

Your position is truly Neo-racism. It seeks to prevent racial equality by preventing any targeting to undo the targeting of the past which created the inequality. If two people went to the emergency room, one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and the other with a broken finger, should they be treated equally? Would it be discriminatory to favor the person with the gunshot wound….by letting that person b e seen first and giving that person more attention? Would you file a law suit over such discrimination? Yet, despite the egregious socioeconomic condition of blacks relative to whites in this nation, such as poverty rate 3 times that of whites, to target blacks for special need and assistance is wrong. Many whites don’t mind seeing blacks in an acute state of inequality or need as long as whites don’t ever have to wait or take the back seat.

While African Americans are wasting their time fighting this battle endlessly, to no avail, they are diminishing further and further as the dominant minority group in the U.S., and are being overtaken socio-economically by every other minority group. Blacks are fighting for something that doesn't even really exist any more (white American global economic dominance), when they should be opening businesses in China and India. Although good luck, as you haven't seen real racial and cultural intolerance until you try to open a small business in Asia or the Middle East.

Start by reading A Post American World, by Fareed Zakaria.

The Post-American World by Fareed Zakaria

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Way to play up the racism thing again. I disagree so therefore I must be a racist and want nothing but to keep the black man down. The opportunities are there for all to pursue now. What's keeping people down is a victim mentality and a feeling of entitlement. It's a cultural problem (I referred to it as the ghetto culture). Get out of the inner city -- live by societal norms -- and a lot of the perceived racism disappears.

That being said -- things are tough all over at the moment and our politicians have sold us out for decades. I'm not so sure there's any recovery coming soon because of it regardless of what the stock market is saying.

We all know that racist have not died out in America and that they exist at every level of society. However, if asked, few white people can name a single prominent white person who is racist. For many whites, being a racist is using the “N” word or saying something that is obviously a denigration of black people. Well, that is like attempting to identify soldiers in a gorilla war by their uniforms. In other words, soldier in a gorilla war don’t wear uniforms because they are trying not to be identified. Obviously they recognize that wearing the uniform makes them easy targets, so they attempt to blend in. Its asymmetric warfare and racism in America today is asymmetric from the past. Hence, the idea that one is not a racist because they don’t wear the uniform ignores the guerilla tactics that have developed now that society has penalties for such beliefs.

Racism to me is rationalizations that conclude the inferiority of black people by dismissing their history and external circumstance that have weighed in on their condition. When you exclude the external you are blaming the internal nature of blacks….which is racist because why would our internal nature be different?

I guess the unemployment rate in Michigan is 15.3% because people have simply gotten lazier and don’t want to work like they did in the past, given that opportunity is totally up to the individual and not the external circumstances. For the longest I have heard people lament that that there is opportunity for those who want it and that there is no one to blame but the individual for not getting it. That was always used when blacks would talk about not having opportunities or equality of opportunity. Our problems were ALWAYS due to laziness and the lack of personal responsibility and initiative. No one respected our claims that the opportunities were not there for us like it has been for whites. Now that the US ponzi scheme economy is collapsing, millions of whites are finding what blacks have known for the longest, which is that you don’t have total control your economic fate and that you can be without work for long period of time for reasons other than being lazy.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by magellan

While African Americans are wasting their time fighting this battle endlessly, to no avail, they are diminishing further and further as the dominant minority group in the U.S., and are being overtaken socio-economically by every other minority group. Blacks are fighting for something that doesn't even really exist any more (white American global economic dominance), when they should be opening businesses in China and India. Although good luck, as you haven't seen real racial and cultural intolerance until you try to open a small business in Asia or the Middle East.

Start by reading A Post American World, by Fareed Zakaria.

The Post-American World by Fareed Zakaria

From my perspective blacks are NOT fighting for this as you suggest. Blacks have become very individualist and are not really concerned with the collective fate of black people. However, most blacks understand and believe the basics of what I laid out above, but they also realize that white society will NEVER turn to that page. Think about it. You cannot hold the belief that this society is racist and at the same time hold the belief that this racist society will do right by blacks. That’s counter intuitive because the ideas are mutually exclusive. So contrary to what many people might think, black people are not wasting their time trying to fight for this, although there exist SOME leaders who do so. There is not opportunity cost or misallocation of time on waiting to be rescued.

[TriMT7]

I did not read the entire thread, but I think it's funny that in America, the easiest (laziest, actually) explanation for every hardship always boils down to race.

The funny thing is in the Florida section of the forum there is a thread started by a white male that claims all the minorities are taking the available jobs, and that supervisors are only hiring other minorities that look like them!


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