[Brie85]

Originally Posted by delayed

To me it seems like they are asking for the type of treatment the op is experiencing.

Your contention that the victims of racial discrimination somehow deserve mistreatment is appalling. How could you possibly believe that a child is "asking for" harassment by school authority figures who are supposed to be protecting children, not degrading them? The family is entitled to live there without discrimination or harassment. The only people who acted wrongly were the harassers. Anything else is just an attempt to blame the victim.

[delayed]

So, my question still stands. What makes someone of a minority WANT to move into an area where they can EXPECT racial discrimination?!

Apparently it is my fault they they can expect to be harassed. I was just asking a question from a side of the isle that apparently isn't allowed anymore, based on the backlash (that I care very little about).

[kcam213]

As an AA woman, I personally prefer a mixed neighborhood in hopes of not running into idiots who are afraid of change.

However, if for some reason, the desire to move into a neighborhood that is predominately another race... because of the schools, the length of commute to work, or because I just have to have THAT house... I would expect that if someone broke the law and violated my constitutional rights... that I should have some intervention from law enforcement agencies.

As a public official that is supported by tax payers money (that means "we, the People" including people of color's tax $$) he is suppose to avoid actions of racial discrimination. If he chooses not to adhere to that rule... then he should get a private job where his personal opinions are welcomed.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by delayed

So, my question still stands. What makes someone of a minority WANT to move into an area where they can EXPECT racial discrimination?!

Apparently it is my fault they they can expect to be harassed. I was just asking a question from a side of the isle that apparently isn't allowed anymore, based on the backlash (that I care very little about).

"that I care very little about" I think that probably says it all. If you can't handle having your ideas challenged, there's always the "logout" button.

But in case you really do care, why should someone, anyone, EXPECT or ACCEPT racial discrimination anywhere in this country? Especially when it's a federal crime? Answer that question first, and then maybe we'll try to answer your nonsensical questions.

You come from the viewpoint that mixing of races is a bad thing, whereas I can show you cities in North America where the populations are very diverse, and they're some of the fastest growing/most prosperous cities in N.A. Unfortunately many Michigan communities buck that model and like to keep sinking into a very deep pit.

[delayed]

I don't believe it's a federal crime for neighbors to give dirty looks, not offer to help, not allow their kids to play with others for whatever reason they like, not invite someone over for a block bbq or etc.. There are many ways peoples actions can make someone else feel uncomfortable, short of provable in a court racial intimidation. (Things like destruction of property, racial slurs painted on garage doors, general vandalism)

Look, I am not saying its right or wrong. I know that these days it's not "progressive" or "forward thinking" enough to just sit on the fence, but that's what I do. I grew up with a VERY racial centric southern family, but I also grew up in a mixed neighborhood and schools that reflected that. These two things are what leave me smack in the middle.

I feel like, simply asking the question isn't a reason to be looked upon as a racist or anything. It's just something I'd like to know the answer to.

The person above gave a decent answer. Perhaps it's the shorter commute or better schools. Again though I'll refer back to the start of this post. Nothing described above is admissible in court as a violation of civil rights.

When it comes to Howell I know first hand that they have a good ole boys network over there that has every arm of the local legal system in their pocket. It started with the Teamsters in the 70's and has never gone away.

Is Howell, Mi generally a racist city? You bet it is. I am related by marriage to some of those who make up that good ole boy network that runs things around there. You bet it is.

That aside, I was never referring to any civil rights violations, only to the neighbors themselves making you feel unwanted, and why someone would want to subject themselves to that.

That lead me to think perhaps it's a pride issue, like "I'll show them". So assuming that my assumptions were wrong. I asked the question.

I also feel strongly about my other point however. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no way on this earth, that you could tell me with 100% certainty that if I were to move my family into a black neighborhood (I don't mean multicultural, I mean 99-100% black), that we wouldn't be subjected to the same harassment, or worse.

Flip the coin, black family, white neighborhood. Same thing. Does that make it right? No. But don't live in this liberal la la land that says only 1 way streets exist in this world and those who drive to and fro are racists and bigoted.

I'm shining a light on the racism that exists on all sides of the spectrum. Mexicans hate whites and white hate them, blacks/whites whites/blacks, arabs/blacks blacks/arabs..etc. It's existed since the beginning of time, so logic dictates that despite anyones best efforts, it's not going anywhere.

I'll answer my own question now. I think minorities are somewhat fearful of minority neighborhoods. city-data.com is a valuble tool you can use to find out why. Overwhelming white population, crime rates low. Overwhelming minority population, crime rates high. It's simple. They'd rather move to a place where they themselves, and their belongings are safer. Better schools, better roads, better shopping, better pretty much everything. Who wants to live in a city where you are fearful to go for a walk after dark? Some of you liberals, go down to Fenkel & Lahser around 11pm on some summer saturday night and just, you know, walk around, enjoy the nightlife. Understand why some people feel the way they do, and then get off my back.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by delayed

I don't believe it's a federal crime for neighbors to give dirty looks, not offer to help, not allow their kids to play with others for whatever reason they like, not invite someone over for a block bbq or etc.. There are many ways peoples actions can make someone else feel uncomfortable, short of provable in a court racial intimidation. (Things like destruction of property, racial slurs painted on garage doors, general vandalism)

Look, I am not saying its right or wrong. I know that these days it's not "progressive" or "forward thinking" enough to just sit on the fence, but that's what I do. I grew up with a VERY racial centric southern family, but I also grew up in a mixed neighborhood and schools that reflected that. These two things are what leave me smack in the middle.

I feel like, simply asking the question isn't a reason to be looked upon as a racist or anything. It's just something I'd like to know the answer to.

The person above gave a decent answer. Perhaps it's the shorter commute or better schools. Again though I'll refer back to the start of this post. Nothing described above is admissible in court as a violation of civil rights.

When it comes to Howell I know first hand that they have a good ole boys network over there that has every arm of the local legal system in their pocket. It started with the Teamsters in the 70's and has never gone away.

Is Howell, Mi generally a racist city? You bet it is. I am related by marriage to some of those who make up that good ole boy network that runs things around there. You bet it is.

That aside, I was never referring to any civil rights violations, only to the neighbors themselves making you feel unwanted, and why someone would want to subject themselves to that.

That lead me to think perhaps it's a pride issue, like "I'll show them". So assuming that my assumptions were wrong. I asked the question.

I also feel strongly about my other point however. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. There's no way on this earth, that you could tell me with 100% certainty that if I were to move my family into a black neighborhood (I don't mean multicultural, I mean 99-100% black), that we wouldn't be subjected to the same harassment, or worse.

Flip the coin, black family, white neighborhood. Same thing. Does that make it right? No. But don't live in this liberal la la land that says only 1 way streets exist in this world and those who drive to and fro are racists and bigoted.

I'm shining a light on the racism that exists on all sides of the spectrum. Mexicans hate whites and white hate them, blacks/whites whites/blacks, arabs/blacks blacks/arabs..etc. It's existed since the beginning of time, so logic dictates that despite anyones best efforts, it's not going anywhere.

I'll answer my own question now. I think minorities are somewhat fearful of minority neighborhoods. city-data.com is a valuble tool you can use to find out why. Overwhelming white population, crime rates low. Overwhelming minority population, crime rates high. It's simple. They'd rather move to a place where they themselves, and their belongings are safer. Better schools, better roads, better shopping, better pretty much everything. Who wants to live in a city where you are fearful to go for a walk after dark? Some of you liberals, go down to Fenkel & Lahser around 11pm on some summer saturday night and just, you know, walk around, enjoy the nightlife. Understand why some people feel the way they do, and then get off my back.

I actually agree with you in some respects. Any monoculture, be it an "all black", "all white", "all asian", "all one religion" (think sections of Iraq or Israel or a Mormon sect), is a bad thing. In many of those communities, including "all white", you'll find generally lower education attainment, high poverty, lower housing values, low levels of cultural offerings, etc.. Take any of the more diverse cities in N.A., Washington DC metro (not city yet), Portland, Toronto, NYC, Seattle, and you'll find some of the highest education levels, plentiful cultural offerings, and basically some of the highest standards of living on the planet.

While places like Howell with its insular attitudes and disdain for anything different might appeal to certain people, and might have low "crime", in the grand scheme of things, it's a "no place special." It's more like a refuge than a destination.

But still, you have to admit that harassment on the part of school officials toward minorities steps way over the line of just "giving your neighbors dirty looks."

[delayed]

Originally Posted by magellan

But still, you have to admit that harassment on the part of school officials toward minorities steps way over the line of just "giving your neighbors dirty looks."

Agreed. Your point you are making about the giant metroplexes is accurate, simply because big business operates from places like Toronto, D.C., L.A. etc. This attracts the more educated to those areas to fill those jobs being offered.

Take a city I am very familiar with for example, Baltimore, MD. Sure the downtown district has highly educated, culturally diverse demographics, during the day anyway. I know people who live 30 miles outside of Baltimore proper just to get away from the slums and all that goes with it, such as the violent crime. They would rather commute then actually live inside those communities. The same is true for Detroit. I know people that work out of Henry Ford Medical and live in Northville. Or my friends who work as engineers for Detroit Public Schools and live in Saint Clair Shores. Washington DC, I have a family member who works for one of the alphabet spook agencies there but commutes almost 60 miles to avoid living anywhere near D.C. The only places worth living in in DC are too expensive for any budget but a senators.

So what I am getting at goes back to the point I made in my most recent previous post. Inner cities are mostly minorities. Are they more predisposed to crime? I think so. I think it has a lot to do with their socioeconomic status that leads them to things like theft. Generational welfare and entitlement has left most complacent, not striving for anything better. Murder? Now that's one I don't understand. Could it harkken back to the days of tribes and tribal conflict and thats where modern day gangs and gang warfare comes from? I don't know. The facts are though that cities with a higher saturation of minorities have more crime. It's worth exploring a reason, although I think i pretty much summed it up. So when a minority family breaks the cycle, and obtains the means to leave their crime ridden communities, where are the only places they can look to for a safer living environment? Cities with less minorities because by default there is less crime. That is not arguable. It is fact. This whole time I was just trying to see if someone was able to freely speak to it.

Is it politically correct? Who cares? Since when has the truth needed to be censored for fear of offending someone? White guilt is a shameful way to live, and I refuse. That doesn't make me a biggot, it only makes me someone who's not afraid to tell it how I see it.

I am someone whos family came over from Baden Baden, Germany right before the American Revolution. We fought on the side of the new republic. We settled in West Tennesse and fought for the confederacy for states rights. That's where we stayed until my Grandfather moved his family north seeking work in the 40's. In a twist of fate he ended up fighting the Germans in WWII and after the war settled into Berkley, MI as a heavy equipment mechanic and raised his family. My southen roots run deep. I like big trucks, big guns, hunting and fishing. My heritage means a great deal to me, and I like to be around like minded folks. Some would use the word unfortunately, but I dont, this leads me to places that some would call backwards thinking redneck hillbillies. It's just a bunch of people like me that appreciate where they are from and they'd like it to stay that way.

So, while some may view Howell as a retreat as opposed to a destination, it depends on what side of the tracks you are on (or mason dixon in this case).

I prefer to live a mile from the nearest stop sign down some two track road in the middle of the woods. Does that take away from the fact that I have a masters in engineering? Or does that raise the average education level of the area? LOL.. who knows.

Two way streets, nothing is ever one sided.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by delayed

Agreed. Your point you are making about the giant metroplexes is accurate, simply because big business operates from places like Toronto, D.C., L.A. etc. This attracts the more educated to those areas to fill those jobs being offered.

Take a city I am very familiar with for example, Baltimore, MD. Sure the downtown district has highly educated, culturally diverse demographics, during the day anyway. I know people who live 30 miles outside of Baltimore proper just to get away from the slums and all that goes with it, such as the violent crime. They would rather commute then actually live inside those communities. The same is true for Detroit. I know people that work out of Henry Ford Medical and live in Northville. Or my friends who work as engineers for Detroit Public Schools and live in Saint Clair Shores. Washington DC, I have a family member who works for one of the alphabet spook agencies there but commutes almost 60 miles to avoid living anywhere near D.C. The only places worth living in in DC are too expensive for any budget but a senators.

So what I am getting at goes back to the point I made in my most recent previous post. Inner cities are mostly minorities. Are they more predisposed to crime? I think so. I think it has a lot to do with their socioeconomic status that leads them to things like theft. Generational welfare and entitlement has left most complacent, not striving for anything better. Murder? Now that's one I don't understand. Could it harkken back to the days of tribes and tribal conflict and thats where modern day gangs and gang warfare comes from? I don't know. The facts are though that cities with a higher saturation of minorities have more crime. It's worth exploring a reason, although I think i pretty much summed it up. So when a minority family breaks the cycle, and obtains the means to leave their crime ridden communities, where are the only places they can look to for a safer living environment? Cities with less minorities because by default there is less crime. That is not arguable. It is fact. This whole time I was just trying to see if someone was able to freely speak to it.

Is it politically correct? Who cares? Since when has the truth needed to be censored for fear of offending someone? White guilt is a shameful way to live, and I refuse. That doesn't make me a biggot, it only makes me someone who's not afraid to tell it how I see it.

I am someone whos family came over from Baden Baden, Germany right before the American Revolution. We fought on the side of the new republic. We settled in West Tennesse and fought for the confederacy for states rights. That's where we stayed until my Grandfather moved his family north seeking work in the 40's. In a twist of fate he ended up fighting the Germans in WWII and after the war settled into Berkley, MI as a heavy equipment mechanic and raised his family. My southen roots run deep. I like big trucks, big guns, hunting and fishing. My heritage means a great deal to me, and I like to be around like minded folks. Some would use the word unfortunately, but I dont, this leads me to places that some would call backwards thinking redneck hillbillies. It's just a bunch of people like me that appreciate where they are from and they'd like it to stay that way.

So, while some may view Howell as a retreat as opposed to a destination, it depends on what side of the tracks you are on (or mason dixon in this case).

I prefer to live a mile from the nearest stop sign down some two track road in the middle of the woods. Does that take away from the fact that I have a masters in engineering? Or does that raise the average education level of the area? LOL.. who knows.

Two way streets, nothing is ever one sided.

I notice how you're cleverly side-tracking the issue at hand. Despite what you want or how you want to live, your freedom to do that ends when it involves the harassment of other people. All the rest is just fireside chat.

[delayed]

Right up to the doorstep of breaking the law, and knocking.

[kcam213]

Originally Posted by delayed

Agreed. Your point you are making about the giant metroplexes is accurate, simply because big business operates from places like Toronto, D.C., L.A. etc. This attracts the more educated to those areas to fill those jobs being offered.

Take a city I am very familiar with for example, Baltimore, MD. Sure the downtown district has highly educated, culturally diverse demographics, during the day anyway. I know people who live 30 miles outside of Baltimore proper just to get away from the slums and all that goes with it, such as the violent crime. They would rather commute then actually live inside those communities. The same is true for Detroit. I know people that work out of Henry Ford Medical and live in Northville. Or my friends who work as engineers for Detroit Public Schools and live in Saint Clair Shores. Washington DC, I have a family member who works for one of the alphabet spook agencies there but commutes almost 60 miles to avoid living anywhere near D.C. The only places worth living in in DC are too expensive for any budget but a senators.

So what I am getting at goes back to the point I made in my most recent previous post. Inner cities are mostly minorities. Are they more predisposed to crime? I think so. I think it has a lot to do with their socioeconomic status that leads them to things like theft. Generational welfare and entitlement has left most complacent, not striving for anything better. Murder? Now that's one I don't understand. Could it harkken back to the days of tribes and tribal conflict and thats where modern day gangs and gang warfare comes from? I don't know. The facts are though that cities with a higher saturation of minorities have more crime. It's worth exploring a reason, although I think i pretty much summed it up. So when a minority family breaks the cycle, and obtains the means to leave their crime ridden communities, where are the only places they can look to for a safer living environment? Cities with less minorities because by default there is less crime. That is not arguable. It is fact. This whole time I was just trying to see if someone was able to freely speak to it.

Is it politically correct? Who cares? Since when has the truth needed to be censored for fear of offending someone? White guilt is a shameful way to live, and I refuse. That doesn't make me a biggot, it only makes me someone who's not afraid to tell it how I see it.

I am someone whos family came over from Baden Baden, Germany right before the American Revolution. We fought on the side of the new republic. We settled in West Tennesse and fought for the confederacy for states rights. That's where we stayed until my Grandfather moved his family north seeking work in the 40's. In a twist of fate he ended up fighting the Germans in WWII and after the war settled into Berkley, MI as a heavy equipment mechanic and raised his family. My southen roots run deep. I like big trucks, big guns, hunting and fishing. My heritage means a great deal to me, and I like to be around like minded folks. Some would use the word unfortunately, but I dont, this leads me to places that some would call backwards thinking redneck hillbillies. It's just a bunch of people like me that appreciate where they are from and they'd like it to stay that way.

So, while some may view Howell as a retreat as opposed to a destination, it depends on what side of the tracks you are on (or mason dixon in this case).

I prefer to live a mile from the nearest stop sign down some two track road in the middle of the woods. Does that take away from the fact that I have a masters in engineering? Or does that raise the average education level of the area? LOL.. who knows.

Two way streets, nothing is ever one sided.

It seems to me that with this post you have changed the conversation. I thought originally you asked why would a person of color subject themselves to living in a predominately white area... and that it was not wrong for white peole to want to live without people of color and that minoritities who chose to live in that neighborhood was only asking for trouble.

That was my understanding of your earlier posts.

Not it seems youare talking about soemthing different. That you are observing that minority neighborhoods are more crime ridden, and that if minoirty can earn enough $$ to escape crime ridden neighborhood that he/she will do so, just as any white person would do.

2 different conversations.

I agree with this post. I am living proof that beccause I can afford to, I chose not to live Detroit proper, because I wanted to lessen the likelihood that my family would become victim to random violence.

Your first post seemed to question WHY would I do this... why wouldn't I just live in poorer high crime areas simply because I was Black.. and that if I did encounter discrimination... it was my own fault anyway because I chose to move there.