[delayed]

I asked the question with the answer already in mind. I just wanted to see what people had to say. So in my last post I went ahead and answered my own question. This in effect did change the topic somewhat. Now I have a new question. Please don't take this in an offensive manor as that is not my intent. I would just like to know why there are no black neighborhoods (around detroit anyway) that black people WANT to live in?

Why is it that when the black population of a city climbs, so does the crime rate? I see how this could be interpreted as me being racist but honestly, like I said before, I'll just ask questions that other people may be too uncomfortable to ask.

I'll cite two prime examples in the Detroit metro area. Look at the trends for Southfield, and Oak Park. Look at the crime index from 1970 - 2008, and watch how it correlates directly with the increase in the black population. So this begs the question. Are the well to do black families leaving the crime ridden ghetto, or are they bringing it with them?

Obviously I don't mean that one family is capable, or even 20 - 30. However, statistically once the black population reaches measurable status against whites, the crime rate goes up, as in the case of the two cities I mentioned.

Why?

[kcam213]

Okay, you seemed to genuinely want to dialogue and not merely bait... so here it goes.

my own thoughts:
First a little of my own history:

I am not from metro Detroit area.... I am from Ohio. I never experienced the race riots, nor the white flight. I came here as an adult who was already formed. I grew up in a majority black predominately HOMEOWNER neighborhood... working class. I went to private schools because my city's public school district was not up to my mother's standing. So although black, I am quite comfortable in my skin with people of other races... and in fact married outside of my race.

When I moved here to Detroit... I was shocked to see just how segregated this metro city is. And the racism.. not just from Whites but from Blacks as well. I never experienced being treated differently because of my color... now here in Detroit, I have experienced that. I know there is a difference because... I get a backroom view of how things are sometimes different for people who are white. I shake my head in amazement at things I see white people do and "get away with". I would NEVER try it... because I KNOW BETTER.

With that said... let me give you my answer;

I initially moved to Detroit proper with my husband. It seemed to be a neighborhood similar to my childhood neighborhood. However, it soon became apparent that this neighborhood was different. There were several homeowners there... but there were more renters. I was a renter myself so I am not discriminate to renters... however, some of my neighbors did not keep their grass cut, there was crime in the neighborhood and no one seemed to care enough to call the police. My DH did, and then it seemed that the police was not willing or able to respond. Loud music, drug house next street over on the corner (they were very discreet BTW, and for the longest I did not know what they were doing until they thought I was a potential customer and they began to walk toward my car... no incident, just a mistake but after that, I knew what was going on.)

The thing is, all these bad things that I am describing was from the renters. I assure you, the owners cut the grass, put in flowers in the spring, painted the peeling trim etc. It was the renters (poorer) who did not repair house.. it is not THEIR house, cut the grass (they don't have money for lawn care, and many did not have cars let alone lawn mowers) and it was certainly not a owner that was selling drugs out of the house.

See? It was low income RENTERS.

In addition, the city services just wasn't there... I won't even discuss the school system. These poorer people are unable to organize to protest to the city about the lack of city services. And if by chance they do organize and protest, then they are regarded as a bunch of whining freeloaders complaining about nothing. They are regarded as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are...."always complaining about something" instead of tax payers with legitimate concerns.

Now for the suburbs changing... this was puzzlement to me. I have witness the decline of a neighborhood due to renters... this happened in my childhood neighborhood... it was black since I can remember.. but now more renters and less homeowners... same black race... just different socioeconomic class.

But with the suburbs... it took me a while to come to a conclusion... but here is what I came up with. The parents who moved family out of ghetto to better suburbs were generally educated or well employed. They pursued a better life for their family then they had growing up. However, their CHILDREN for some reason do not have the same drive. A little black youth are more interested in being accepted by the crew... which it seems to be the kids in the rough lifestyle that is glamorized by rap videos. (With the exception of the newly elected president, Look at the role models of today's black youth... athletes, actors, rappers The suburb kids look at the good life their parents created for them as boring and predictable. (Sort of like the youth in the 60's.) At any rate... if you are a high acheiver, you can be subjected to ridicule, shunned etc. You may not be accepted by your peers and not get dates etc... because you are not cool, hip (whatever the latest slang for today).
So the suburb kids not only bring their ghetto friends to the neighborhood and raise hell, but the kids themselves change or reject the values that their parents tried to instill upon them.

So when a young family is looking for a new place to raise their kids...they look at Oak Park and decide that there are just enough people/pockets of areas that are undesirable and decide to move somewhere else. After awhile, people who want or need to sell house in Oak Park can't get their asking price so instead of foreclosing, they rent the house.

Oh! and so the cycle continues.

Well this is my assessment... economics and peer pressure of youth.

[delayed]

Fabulous. Your post was simply extraordinary, and while not easy to breath in, a breath of fresh air. Whether or not you wish to accept this, you and I are no different in our views and opinions. You are correct in that I truly was seeking dialogue and not to just bait. I did stir the pot a bit to get the conversation going but I'm glad I did. The "it's not mine so why should I take care of it" approach has destroyed neighborhoods. I believe the way it happened is exactly as you described. The well meaning parents bring their families to these new towns and the youth reject the morals and drive to better themselves because current culture dictates to them more than they allow their parents to. This culture glorifies crime, drugs, and gang mentality so to live up to it's standards and live the "cool" way they bring down property values through their actions. I know this first hand, I watched it growing up in the 80's and 90's in Royal Oak (13 & Woodward area). It wasn't only black kids, to be fair it was also the white kids as well who were being suckered into the same gangsta rap culture and everything else. Good wholesome families started leaving in droves. How could you blame them? A group of 15 young people hanging out in the street at 11 at night with their ridiculously loud car stereos blasting the latest "weed, money and hoes" song. You come out and tell them it's late, you have children, and they threaten you. You call the cops, the other neighbors see the cops outside every other night, and they start to see this as a sign their neighborhood has gone down hill. Get out while I can. It is a cycle that does continue. In the schools the "cool" kids are the ones who glorify this type of lifestyle. No longer is it the smart kids who are trying to make something of themselves, no, they get belittled. It's the pants hanging down to their knees, latest pair of nike shoes, loudest car stereo..etc that these other impressionable kids look up to because they also want to be "cool". It's so unfortunate, and sad really. It leads me to believe this Nation is on a crash course unless suddenly things like values, and a drive to be better than you are, or better than your parents even, comes into play.

You see I do look down on some people. Not for their race, gender, religion (except crazy scientologists), but for how they CHOOSE to live their lives. I don't care what race you are, if you're wearing your pants around your knees and have to hold them up to walk, I'm giving you a dirty, judging look. If you think blasting the latest rap tune as loud as human ear drums can handle it without rupturing at 10-12 at night, I don't want you living in my neighborhood. "Ghetto trash", it sounds like it could be a racist term, but I'll apply it to anyone fitting the description of the behaviors we both described. Black, white, asian, mexican, I really don't care. If you're ghetto trash I don't want you in my neighborhood, you bring down property value and make my home less safe.

So you see it is a lifestyle and attitude that I am predjudice against. If one race happens to make up the majority who fall under this catagory, how is that my fault?

I REALLY hate to point this out, because it's so cliche'. It's like the white guy talking about all his black friends to prove he's not a racist, but I'm going to do it anyway. Not only is my best friend black, he was my best man at my wedding. He stands out like a sore thumb in my wedding photos, but I love the guy and dont give a damn. He works harder than anyone I know, provides for himself and helps his mother out who is on disability, and always strives to better himself no matter how well off he would appear to be. Would he be my best friend and have been in my wedding if he was one of these low life ghetto trash scumbags? Absolutely not. I would have never given him the chance back when we were 15 when I met him in school.

When it comes to towns like Howell, getting back to the point of this thread, I think they are just arfraid of their town being host to the types of people described above. Most of them live and work fairly close and don't have any exposure to other races. The only thing they have to base their views on is what public media tells them. They see the 11o'clock news every night and see "murder in detroit", "rape and stabbing in detroit", "house fire blamed on arson in detroit" and they know Detroit it majoritively black, and the news always shows the black face behind the crime, so? They put this together with how television portrays black youth as these hip gangsters who carry guns and go after white girls and they have it engrained in their minds that these are the type of people we do not want in our city. It turns them predudice. As for Mexicans, well, Howell's economy has been hit hard and the jobless rate is horrendous. Everybody is aware of the illegal immigration problem and they see these guys working landscaping, brick masonry, painting, drywall, farming..etc. All jobs that someone in Howell with a family to feed who lot his job would be happy to take, but the illegals are here taking dirt pay to do it keeping him out of work. They are lowering the pay standard for hard work leaving laid off and displaced workers S.O.L. to take these jobs because they expect a livable wage. I'm not saying that all of the mexicans are here illegally, but since SO many are, leeching off our unstable system, it makes it difficult for some people to see a difference between legal and illegal. Especially if they don't speak English. Groups like La Raza, and the LaReconquitas who openly claim the Southwest belongs to them is only making matters much worse. The U.S. defeated the Mexican army in 1847, handily, and Mexico ceded the Southwest to us. It's ours, that's how wars work. It's a very touchy issue for (according to polls) most people in this country. This is why Mexicans have come under heavy scrutiny over the past 10 years.

Kcam, you could be my neighbor any day. =)

[kcam213]

Yeah, I don't live in areas that Hispanics are a major factor, but I have noticed that many of the construction jobs and landscaping jobs are going to non English speaking Hispanics... and it is sad because you are correct, these were jobs that were held by hard working American citizens providing for a family.

And thanks for inviting me into your neighborhood. I just really want to let people know, you can't judge a book by its cover.

And as far as news... I worked inside a newsroom as a college student (professional internship...another lifetime ago) and I have seen first hand how the editor really sets the tone of the news cast. He is the one who decides which stories will be aired, how long the story will be, whether it will involve an interview etc. So it depends on the perspective of the news editor. The editor can really have a major influence people who get their life experiences vicariously through the tv.

[kcam213]

Oh, and I dont' understand the youth... I guess I am truly getting old. my niece who is 18 is dating a real Bozo. Wears his pants round his knees, acted like a big baby at Cedar Point, because he could n't follow CP's rules...

I can't for the life of me see what in the hells she sees in this boy. She graduated from all girl academy with honors, and is going to college for she thinks pharmacy (at least this week it is pharmacy

I can not understand the attraction and fear that she will become saddled with this Big Dummy.

When young women began to date.. and they date boys who are really from different value system... that also will affect the neighborhood.

Look at the news recently. The cat in the washer machine and the 5 year old shot in a drive-by. In both cases, the perpetrator was not from that neighborhood, they were ghetto boys dating girls who lived in that neighborhood.

[A.M]

My husband and I happened upon this blog while considering relocation to Michigan. I must say that it is refreshing to see an open dialog concerning race. I read most of the posts and agree with some things from both sides.

As an AA female, most of the discrimination(or what I perceived to be discrimination) against me has been more about class than race. The stereotype of " ghetto trash" is concretley parallel to " trailor trash". Deragatory terms such as these can be used to describe racial affiliation along with socioeconomic status. For this reason I won't look down on another group of people. I don't believe that the color of a persons skin determines whether or not they are worthy of my acceptance. It's ridiculous to believe that because a group of black guys walking with their pants sagging will rob you; just as it is ludicrous to believe that a group of white " punk rockers" will cut your throat. Is it possible? sure. Do I want to see this in my neighborhood( all homeowners together) Hell NO! That doesn't mean that I feel that people who wear their pants sagging or hair spiked are "bad people" This is primarily because in my profession(corrections), I've had the fortune to meet people from all walks of life. Some fit the model, and some don't. However, I know how most persons who dress, look, or act differently than what is socially acceptable. Any behavior classified outside of the norm brings down property values and costs homeowners money So, the real color is GREEN.

That is to say, I won't teach my children that the people who look like them are more apt to rob them because this is not only a biased teaching, it is an incomplete one. However I do want them to believe that people are products of their own individual beliefs. Therefore, If you are a person who does not value yourself, you are more likely to disrepect yourself. This concept will extend to those around you. Whether it's blasting gangsta rap, hard rock, or smooth jazz; The COMPLETE teaching is to model why blasting music or walking around with your pants sagging is offensive to your neighbors whether their black or white.

Lastly, I do want the freedom to move wherever my finances allow me to. I am not so liberal that I don't recognize that there are systemic issues facing all communities so I try not to make sweeping generalizations in regards to race or class. It only serves to perpetuate a cylcle of backwards and unproductive thinking. Every neighborhood and city needs to undergo change, simply because it breeds innovation. Freedom is an American liberty, so living where you feel safe( because you never really know your neighbors) should be the first priority.

[Cliffie]

It's a curious thing that in other countries, renters are just as houseproud as owners. You can't tell a rental place from a house the inhabitants own in a lot of places, even across the river in Canada. It's just one of our cultural weirdnesses.

There are some very wealthy, very exclusive and desirable black neighborhoods in this country, and it's a shame they're separated from the white ones. There aren't as many as there should be because we don't have enough black brain surgeons and business moguls yet. The thing is, when you segregate a community on ANY basis -- income, ethnicity, whatever -- the problems specific to that group tend to clump up more, so you see the same problems in every household and fewer people in reach, but outside that loop, who can lend a hand or help see or build a solution. On top of that, when the population in a community is skeeved by other populations nearby -- the way the black community is looked down on by the more ignorant whites and even other blacks in the metro area -- you tend to get into a fun 'n' easy victim-blaming cycle where you hear things like "these people bring crime wherever they go, let's move away." That's exactly the kind of thinking that drives businesses and homeowners out of an area, allowing rents to drop so it can fill up with down and outs. That also makes it harder for landlords to keep the places up. Renters wind up in a grubby place they can afford but it's not within reach of a job that would allow them some upward mobility; the tax base plummets so the schools start to stink like Dumpsters in August, making it even harder for local kids to get a decent start. And in Detroit of course public transportation is almost non-existent, making it even harder to get to or even interview for a decent job. Pretty soon the best-looking money-making options are things like pimping and dealing drugs, the kids have no prospects of belonging to anything but the local branch office of the Crips or the Latin Counts, and voila, there's your skyrocketing crime rate. And now nobody wants to live there.

[edub]

I think the correlation between renters and crime is just that, a correlation. Renters are more often younger, single, lower income and perhaps less responsible by definition. Imagine two guys living in a house Vs a family of four. Not hard to see how they are apples and oranges.

The primary cause of crime is chaos or lack of structure. Without getting too deep into the nuts and bolts of this, let me just say that high crime areas are nearly synonymous with chaos and lawlessness. Unfortunately, many black kids grow up in chaotic neighborhoods and without Fathers. I know it sounds cliché to point to lack of Fathers the cause of delinquency but facts are stubborn things. Fathers (intact families) represent order, discipline and stability. Traditional values also represent these things. "Progressive" modes of thought have abandon these principles and replaced them with an "anything goes" mentality in which there is no concrete right and wrong. Recently, some educators suggested making Ebonics a valid dialect suggesting that it was racist not to.

But it gets worse. Today, the hip hop / prison culture is accepted as mainstream and even celebrated as "black culture" - something I would find supremely offensive if I was black. Another virulent way of thinking is the victim mentality that is so prevalent today. A great deal of black parents actually teach their kids that the white man is the reason for all their problems and there is nothing wrong with taking back what they owe you. I have seen and heard this lesson numerous times.

Until society as a whole demands an orderly society with a unified culture and code of etiquette, this type of thing is bound to continue. Unless we all take a unified stance and tell young black men that their conduct is unacceptable and must change, crime rates will continue to rise and the ensuing chaos will continue to affect the next generation of children.

Funny though - here we are discussing race and crime while young black kids are running around dressed like circus clowns, acting in a loud obnoxious manner that is or should be wholly unacceptable by all civilized standards. If you want to know why they commit crimes and why white people don't want them around just look at them. The only thing most of these kids need is a Father to put a stop to their nonsense. The rest really is commentary.

[shellibabe]

I am a African AMerican female and you guys have no idea how depressing this is. I am a educated person who is tolerant of everybody (too emotionally draining to hate and judge people). I feel sad because all black people aren't bad just as all whites, hispanics, middle eastern, etc aren't bad. I have two children and I wonder about the world I'm sending them off into. Will we ever really learn to judge by character not color?

[guitarslinger]

Originally Posted by shellibabe

I am a African AMerican female and you guys have no idea how depressing this is. I am a educated person who is tolerant of everybody (too emotionally draining to hate and judge people). I feel sad because all black people aren't bad just as all whites, hispanics, middle eastern, etc aren't bad. I have two children and I wonder about the world I'm sending them off into. Will we ever really learn to judge by character not color?

Perhaps the election of President Obama is an indication that we,in fact,are learning to judge by character alone.It's a slow process.