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Old 10-18-2009, 07:19 PM
 
720 posts, read 899,957 times
Reputation: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by canudigit View Post
The question is, why do these young men and women want to create babies in the first place? I have heard a variety of reasons, such as, "I wanted someone to love and who would love me", "I thought it would be cool to have a baby", "I thought that if I had his baby he would never leave me", etc., etc. Then, when these lame reasons fade after the baby is born and the novelty wears off, well, that's the sad part.

I don't know what the answer is. Actually though, if our society could somehow go back to the era of two parent families with a mom at home and the majority of families going to church and teaching their kids right from wrong, that would be a key component. How to do that? If I had the answer to that question, I would sure find out how to implement it.
yes.....two parent families with stay at home moms! (i'm a one parent family and raising a child is definitely a TWO parent job.....actually its a family job) i have one friend who stays at home with her children. the rest send them off to daycare for the almighty dollar (and they don't HAVE to). i dunno about the church thing though:}
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:23 PM
 
720 posts, read 899,957 times
Reputation: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
My idea - give every woman $1000 for accepting a Norplant device. That's the carrot. The stick is no fed/state aid unless you get such a device. If there's a medical reason this can't be done then there are alternatives.

If there was a simple pill that guys could take to prevent pregnancy -- the human race would probably stop in one generation.

On the other side of the equation -- I'd create a 90% tax bracket starting at $250K. The gap between the rich and poor is simply becoming too great and we're creating a whole new class of the super rich.
good idea....and the incentives would change depending on if there were children born or not.....and i agree, if we could get the men to stop 'spreading their seed' it would be a drastic change.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:39 PM
 
47,586 posts, read 32,237,646 times
Reputation: 21458
I could see having a program that requires welfare recipients be sterilized to receive handouts. Or a cash handout, something like $200 or $400 to all who would come in and be sterilized. That would weed out a lot of drug addicts, alcoholics, and stupid people. Far too many people are having babies they can never support and are not very capable of caring for. Child abuse and neglect are rampant. We can't build prisons fast enough for the problems of terrible parenting. Abortion rates are ridiculous, women conceive only to destroy their babies.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:30 AM
 
Location: Pure Michigan!
2,908 posts, read 3,258,800 times
Reputation: 3138
We live in very selfish times. Someone that I work with was telling me the other day that her sister is four months pregnant and that she hates the guy who is the baby's father with a passion. She is also worried that after she has the baby she won't be able "to tan, go to Vegas as much, or go to Cabo in the winter." Hopefully, she will put that baby up for adoption, since it sounds like she already wants it about as much as a case of swine flu. Very sad.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan and Sometimes Orange County CA
15,820 posts, read 28,597,550 times
Reputation: 11638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
My idea - give every woman $1000 for accepting a Norplant device. That's the carrot. The stick is no fed/state aid unless you get such a device. If there's a medical reason this can't be done then there are alternatives.

If there was a simple pill that guys could take to prevent pregnancy -- the human race would probably stop in one generation.

On the other side of the equation -- I'd create a 90% tax bracket starting at $250K. The gap between the rich and poor is simply becoming too great and we're creating a whole new class of the super rich.
Men can get sterilized and it is a fairly simple procedure that costs little. The problem is that in some subcultures it is considered manly to spread your seed and father many children with different women. Then you can go around to them and collect a little bit of their extra welfare payments for having kids. You need to change the subculture to solve the problem. Young girls are not thinking about how they are going to pay for a baby when they get pregnant. they are thinking about how they want this guy to like them. In most cases, tHe guys are not thinking at all, and they really do not care, they can just move on.

The idea of creating a reward system for getting sterilized is a good one. It would be quite expensive short term, but have long term savings.

If you tax 90% at $250K, why would anyone ever work hard enough, take risks, or go to 7-15 years of college to get avanced training to draw that kind of pay?

UNder your program, Doctors, lawyers,. businessmen and advanced engineers woudl all work part time, to keep their income at $249,000. That way they woudl not hit your tax threshold. No one would take the huge risk and personaly sacrifice necessary to start their own busienss because the up side is so limited that it simply is not worth it. We would all become a bunch of worker drones with no reason to think, innovate or try to advance ourselves since to do so, avails nothing.


UNder this idea, someone could make $249,999 and only get taxed at about 45% (the current rate of all taxes combined), but if they made one more dollar, then the would pay more than they earn in taxes. (90% federal taxes, plus state, local and social securiry (as well as SDI in some places). Thus, they would have to pay all of their income to the government and then still get a bill for more taxes. Under your plan, would those people qualify for welfare, or woudl they just starve?


So if you make $249,999, they take home $137,000 to live on, but if they make $250,000, they have to pay more than $250,000 in taxes and they take home nothing.

Now that sounds like a great plan. Lets punish the hardest working, most innovatative, motivated, and willing to take risks for the benefit of those happy to be drones and just do what they are told (of course there will be no one to tell them what to do since no one will want such jobs).
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:10 AM
 
4,378 posts, read 3,774,924 times
Reputation: 3341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
My idea - give every woman $1000 for accepting a Norplant device. That's the carrot. The stick is no fed/state aid unless you get such a device. If there's a medical reason this can't be done then there are alternatives.

On the other side of the equation -- I'd create a 90% tax bracket starting at $250K. The gap between the rich and poor is simply becoming too great and we're creating a whole new class of the super rich.
I haven't seen a lot of problems with super wealth around MI lately. Where are you living!?

I like the Norplant idea, though.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:34 PM
 
314 posts, read 479,836 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Men can get sterilized and it is a fairly simple procedure that costs little. The problem is that in some subcultures it is considered manly to spread your seed and father many children with different women. Then you can go around to them and collect a little bit of their extra welfare payments for having kids. You need to change the subculture to solve the problem. Young girls are not thinking about how they are going to pay for a baby when they get pregnant. they are thinking about how they want this guy to like them. In most cases, tHe guys are not thinking at all, and they really do not care, they can just move on.

The idea of creating a reward system for getting sterilized is a good one. It would be quite expensive short term, but have long term savings.

If you tax 90% at $250K, why would anyone ever work hard enough, take risks, or go to 7-15 years of college to get avanced training to draw that kind of pay?

UNder your program, Doctors, lawyers,. businessmen and advanced engineers woudl all work part time, to keep their income at $249,000. That way they woudl not hit your tax threshold. No one would take the huge risk and personaly sacrifice necessary to start their own busienss because the up side is so limited that it simply is not worth it. We would all become a bunch of worker drones with no reason to think, innovate or try to advance ourselves since to do so, avails nothing.


UNder this idea, someone could make $249,999 and only get taxed at about 45% (the current rate of all taxes combined), but if they made one more dollar, then the would pay more than they earn in taxes. (90% federal taxes, plus state, local and social securiry (as well as SDI in some places). Thus, they would have to pay all of their income to the government and then still get a bill for more taxes. Under your plan, would those people qualify for welfare, or woudl they just starve?


So if you make $249,999, they take home $137,000 to live on, but if they make $250,000, they have to pay more than $250,000 in taxes and they take home nothing.

Now that sounds like a great plan. Lets punish the hardest working, most innovatative, motivated, and willing to take risks for the benefit of those happy to be drones and just do what they are told (of course there will be no one to tell them what to do since no one will want such jobs).
Your reasoning is spot on. A tax rate of 90% would stop productivity in its tracks at that level. Some people think jobs are created out of thin air. The truth is, they are created by individuals who take risks because they are REWARDED for the risks they take. No reward (or if your hard earned money is taxed away almost 100%), no risks and no job creation. Your analysis of the tax system is a bit mistaken. A tax rate of 90% at $250,000 would merely tax every additional dollar over $250K at 90%, not the $249,999 earned up to that point.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan and Sometimes Orange County CA
15,820 posts, read 28,597,550 times
Reputation: 11638
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes View Post
Your reasoning is spot on. A tax rate of 90% would stop productivity in its tracks at that level. Some people think jobs are created out of thin air. The truth is, they are created by individuals who take risks because they are REWARDED for the risks they take. No reward (or if your hard earned money is taxed away almost 100%), no risks and no job creation. Your analysis of the tax system is a bit mistaken. A tax rate of 90% at $250,000 would merely tax every additional dollar over $250K at 90%, not the $249,999 earned up to that point.
You are correct, thanks for reminding me. See what happens when you have someone do your taxes? You forget the specifics. While I do not remember the specifics, I do know and understand the concepts.

You have to include the other taxes in addition to federal taxes. I pay whatever federal tax bracket, then the Michigan state tax, plus the Detroit city tax, plus I pay some taxes to California, then I pay both the normal social security, plus the business share of social security, California SDI and who knows what all else. I think it comes out to 45% of my income if I remember correctly. I do not pay a lot of attention to the number. It is what it is and I cannot change it so I pay it and move on. On top of that I donate 10% of my income to charities. However I do not get a tax deduction for much if any of that donation (alternative minimum tax takes it away. I also do not get much if any deduction for the property taxes that i pay. I am not sure whether state income tax gets deducted or not. However the fact is that I am also taxed on money that I give away or pay in property (and maybe income) taxes - so I pay tax on at least part of my taxes. Thus I am taxed on money that I do not have. That effectively substantially increases my total tax percentage on the money that I actually have available to pay the bills. the bottom line is that the federal percentage of income tax is only a fraction of the effective tax rate.

If I am at an effective rate of 45 to 55 % under the current system with the federal portion being something like 30% I think, then boost that up to 90% or whatever the average is (it is much more than 30+% and you have an unacceptable level of taxation. On top of that, they are continuing to take away deductions and exemptions.

Since I am usually barely over the threshold, a tax rate of 90% on the amount over $250,000 would probably not result in me owing more in taxes than my total income, it might be enough to push me to just work less or not at all. (Watching TV and collecting welfare starts to have appeal at some point).

If they substantially increase my taxes, I will reduce the amount of time that I spend working, or just go work elsewhere as an employee (sorry for the people whom I employ). It is barely worth the extra effort at the current tax rates, boost it higher and I am not going to work so hard anymore. I can work far less and make almost the same net amount of money with no risk and no responsibility.

There is a line for everyone, cross that line, and you will get no investment, no enturpurnurialship (no clue on spelling that), not risk taking, no new business. That line is at a different place for different people. For me and for a lot of business owners that I know, we are sitting right on that line.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Michigan--good on the rocks
2,544 posts, read 1,953,772 times
Reputation: 1885
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjay View Post
good idea....and the incentives would change depending on if there were children born or not.....and i agree, if we could get the men to stop 'spreading their seed' it would be a drastic change.
There is an easy way to get men to stop "spreading their seed." And women have complete control of it. It is this simple: stop spreading your legs. No milk until you've bought the cow.

What I think we need is a graduated system of assistance, so the people who do try to go back to work are not punished for it. A gradual reduction of benefits rather than utter and complete withdrawal. It would make the transition easier.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:53 AM
 
314 posts, read 479,836 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
You are correct, thanks for reminding me. See what happens when you have someone do your taxes? You forget the specifics. While I do not remember the specifics, I do know and understand the concepts.

You have to include the other taxes in addition to federal taxes. I pay whatever federal tax bracket, then the Michigan state tax, plus the Detroit city tax, plus I pay some taxes to California, then I pay both the normal social security, plus the business share of social security, California SDI and who knows what all else. I think it comes out to 45% of my income if I remember correctly. I do not pay a lot of attention to the number. It is what it is and I cannot change it so I pay it and move on. On top of that I donate 10% of my income to charities. However I do not get a tax deduction for much if any of that donation (alternative minimum tax takes it away. I also do not get much if any deduction for the property taxes that i pay. I am not sure whether state income tax gets deducted or not. However the fact is that I am also taxed on money that I give away or pay in property (and maybe income) taxes - so I pay tax on at least part of my taxes. Thus I am taxed on money that I do not have. That effectively substantially increases my total tax percentage on the money that I actually have available to pay the bills. the bottom line is that the federal percentage of income tax is only a fraction of the effective tax rate.

If I am at an effective rate of 45 to 55 % under the current system with the federal portion being something like 30% I think, then boost that up to 90% or whatever the average is (it is much more than 30+% and you have an unacceptable level of taxation. On top of that, they are continuing to take away deductions and exemptions.

Since I am usually barely over the threshold, a tax rate of 90% on the amount over $250,000 would probably not result in me owing more in taxes than my total income, it might be enough to push me to just work less or not at all. (Watching TV and collecting welfare starts to have appeal at some point).

If they substantially increase my taxes, I will reduce the amount of time that I spend working, or just go work elsewhere as an employee (sorry for the people whom I employ). It is barely worth the extra effort at the current tax rates, boost it higher and I am not going to work so hard anymore. I can work far less and make almost the same net amount of money with no risk and no responsibility.

There is a line for everyone, cross that line, and you will get no investment, no enturpurnurialship (no clue on spelling that), not risk taking, no new business. That line is at a different place for different people. For me and for a lot of business owners that I know, we are sitting right on that line.
There are even more taxes you pay as well. Gas tax, utility/phone tax (including Granholm's new "energy efficiency charges), sales taxes and the list goes on and on.
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