[bonni0827]

Indentured Servant I pray you are right. My husband has been in Shanghai, China the last week and
when he calls he tells me how many American Companies are building there. Not only American Companies but also European Countries are expanding in China too. He gets depressed seeing this while he is there since we know of so many people here without a job or health insurance. We pay a 20% Tariff on our goods going into their country while they pay nothing when exporting to the USA.
I thought globalization was going to help everyone everywhere?

[MTUCache]

People have gotten so wrapped up in seeing the auto industries leaving Michigan. It's easy to see the main industry of a place leave and feel like there's no longer any reason for people to live there.... but take a look around. Why are other areas successful? They don't have (and probably never had) an auto-industry to build around.

Why do people live in Phoenix? San Fransisco? Seattle? Atlanta? Houston? Because those are places that once (historically) had significance. They don't now, or barely do. They don't have a monopoly on some industry that acts as a magnet for people and jobs, they're just places where lots of people happen to live, for whatever reason, and the culture of that population creates jobs. Modern cities are not defined by the type of work that is done there. They haven't been for decades. Cities like Detroit (cars) and Pittsburgh (steel) have suffered greatly because of holding onto that industry, but there's no logical reason why they can't thrive based on a well-spread group of industries just like everywhere else.

So... even if the auto industry never existed, what does Michigan have that most other places don't? The list is endless. By almost any measure Michigan (including the Detroit area) has some of the most beautiful, abundant and resource-rich land in the world. Sure, things like timber and arable land aren't nearly as important as they once were, and travel by boat/river isn't nearly as crucial as it once was, but as this topic suggests, other resources (like fresh water and natural attractions) are emerging to take their place. Michigan will likely always be one of the most rich areas in the world, easily capable of sustaining the millions of people who live there... it just so happens that right now the economy is in a transition period that has accentuated the negatives of its past, and hasn't quite realized the positives of its future yet.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by MTUCache

People have gotten so wrapped up in seeing the auto industries leaving Michigan. It's easy to see the main industry of a place leave and feel like there's no longer any reason for people to live there.... but take a look around. Why are other areas successful? They don't have (and probably never had) an auto-industry to build around.

Why do people live in Phoenix? San Fransisco? Seattle? Atlanta? Houston? Because those are places that once (historically) had significance. They don't now, or barely do. They don't have a monopoly on some industry that acts as a magnet for people and jobs, they're just places where lots of people happen to live, for whatever reason, and the culture of that population creates jobs. Modern cities are not defined by the type of work that is done there. They haven't been for decades. Cities like Detroit (cars) and Pittsburgh (steel) have suffered greatly because of holding onto that industry, but there's no logical reason why they can't thrive based on a well-spread group of industries just like everywhere else.

So... even if the auto industry never existed, what does Michigan have that most other places don't? The list is endless. By almost any measure Michigan (including the Detroit area) has some of the most beautiful, abundant and resource-rich land in the world. Sure, things like timber and arable land aren't nearly as important as they once were, and travel by boat/river isn't nearly as crucial as it once was, but as this topic suggests, other resources (like fresh water and natural attractions) are emerging to take their place. Michigan will likely always be one of the most rich areas in the world, easily capable of sustaining the millions of people who live there... it just so happens that right now the economy is in a transition period that has accentuated the negatives of its past, and hasn't quite realized the positives of its future yet.

Thank you. That was a very good post. The gloom and doom for Michigan at this point is misplaced. The gloom and doom should be directed at the US economy as a whole, and its unsustainable level of debt by the government, households and private sector. In the past, when Michigan economy tanked, there were areas or regions of the country that were booming. What we are experiencing today is not really Michigan centric. There are no states that are booming. Look at California, Nevada, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida and more. These once booming places have economies in contraction and they don’t have the auto industry to blame it on. Hence, Michigan troubles right now really are born from a nation in economic trouble. It’s NOT a Michigan thing, but rather, an AMERICAN thing. Sure, you might find a state where the grass is a little bit greener, but don’t kid yourself. Overall, the grass is browning in America.....and not JUST Michigan.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by bonni0827

Indentured Servant I pray you are right. My husband has been in Shanghai, China the last week and
when he calls he tells me how many American Companies are building there. Not only American Companies but also European Countries are expanding in China too. He gets depressed seeing this while he is there since we know of so many people here without a job or health insurance. We pay a 20% Tariff on our goods going into their country while they pay nothing when exporting to the USA.
I thought globalization was going to help everyone everywhere?

Globalization brings things into "balance." Huge chunks of the population in China and India are now entering middle class from 3rd world status. They had nowhere to go but up. We, on the other hand, were fat dumb and happy with our global economic monopoly for 50 years. We had nowhere to go but down. Where the equilibrium will land is anyone's guess.

You would think all of those hundreds of millions of people moving into the middle class (with all of its luxuries like electronics, single occupant vehicles, air conditioning, etc), putting all kinds of stress on the earth's resources, would create demand for something that we could provide.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by danielj72

, but until there are very major shortages in the west this will not happen. .

Already occurring. Governmental entites are keeping it quiet for whatever reason, but Los Angeles and Orange County are in serious trouble with regard to water right now. In Orange county, they have so badly depeleted the water table that sea water is flooding in and contaminating the fresh water with salt. In both La and Orange COnty, they are desperately trying to prevent people from watering theri lawns (a few years back it was illegal in LA - not illegal right now, but they will have to go there again soon).

Water rates have increased in parts of Orange County four times in the past 12 months. The do nto water your lawn issue is being dealt with by making it too expensive to water your lawn. People are beginning to look at alternative landscaping, but that will not solve the problem, or even slow its growth very much.

In New Mexico the City of Albuquerque and INtel are locked in a competition for water use. There is not enough for both.

Other areas must be suffering simlar shortages I just do not know about them. (Georgia had a major water shortage this year). It is not something in the distant future, it is here right now.


I do not think that it will be even five years, before water becomes a huge economic and political issue. Just a year or so ago, New Mexico's governor was talking about just taking the water that they need ("The Great Lakes States will just have to share") - Ok, you have gold, we have water, we will both share. We can trade ounce for ounce.


Even if other Cities had more appeal (and I do not agree that they do - Buffalo does nto have anything to rival Detroit's suburbs, in fact, no place does). Michigan will still benefit econmically from the water situation. Saudi Arabia has more oil and better processing facilities than Iraq, but Iraq still recieves huge economic benefits from their oil. I could see that Chicago, or Milwaukee may obtain a greater benefit, bit all of Michigan will undoubtedly become desireable as well. I would trade dealing with cold weather for not being able to take a shower any day.

[Indentured Servant]

From the BLS:

REGIONAL AND STATE EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT -- SEPTEMBER 2009

Regional and state unemployment rates were generally little changed
in September. Twenty-three states and the District of Columbia recorded
over-the-month unemployment rate increases, 19 states registered rate
decreases, and 8 states had no rate change, the U.S. Bureau of Labor
Statistics reported today. Over the year, jobless rates increased in
all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The national unemployment
rate rose to 9.8 percent in September, up 0.1 percentage point from
August and 3.6 points from September 2008.

In September, nonfarm payroll employment decreased in 43 states and
the District of Columbia and increased in 7 states. The largest over-
the-month decrease in the level of employment occurred in New York
(-81,700), followed by Texas (-44,700), California (-39,300), Wisconsin
(-21,700), and Michigan (-21,500). The District of Columbia experienced
the largest over-the-month percentage decrease in employment (-1.4 per-
cent), followed by New York (-0.9 percent), Kentucky and Wisconsin
(-0.8 percent each), and Arizona, Arkansas, Hawaii, and Nebraska
(-0.7 percent each). The largest over-the-month increases in employment
occurred in Indiana (+4,400), New Mexico (+3,700), Nevada (+2,700), and
Utah (+2,500). New Mexico (+0.5 percent) experienced the largest over-
the-month percentage increase in employment, followed by Indiana, Nevada,
and Utah (+0.2 percent each). Over the year, nonfarm employment decreased
in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The largest over-the-year
percentage decreases occurred in Arizona and Michigan (-7.5 percent each),
Nevada and Oregon (-6.1 percent each), and Georgia (-6.0 percent).

What this shows, when juxtaposing year-over-year changes in employment vs the change in the most recent month is that the rate of decline in Michigan jobs is slowing in absolute terms and in relative (to other states) terms. Wisconsin actually lost more jobs than Michigan from August to Septermber of this year and Wisconsin has HALF the population of Michigan. Michigan once lead the nation in job losses in total number as well as percentage. Now it has fallen down the list in both catagories.

As I said. Michigan is an undervalued stock. It is bottoming out and will have great real estate deals for those who invest at the bottom of the market.

[VM1138]

That might be because there are hardly any jobs left to lose. Everyone needs gas station attendants, so lose won't be going anywhere. :|

[MI-IRISH]

After talking to various people in the construction business,they are actually saying they are going to see a light at the end of the tunnel,but thats in the industry i live in,maybe trickle down might happen...

[mike231]

I'm in that industry (Construction) 21 years self-employed; The light is dim and the tunnel could be very long.
Still working for 20 - 30% less than I was in 2006 and working a lot less hours. The work is streaky; people need to get comfortable again.
How long will that take ?

[MI-IRISH]

the chatter i'm hearing is abot 12-16 months,a lot is depending on lansing..no love lost there by any means