Lets put some optimisim back in Michigans corner. (Detroit, Grand Rapids: apartment complex, travel)

[TurboState]

I've noticed a nice up-tick in the housing market around here at least.. Homes seem to be moving a bit again.

Anyone else have anything positive to report? The doom and gloom wave riding high in Michigan is getting a little bit old.. I was guilty for propagating it myself, and feel bad for that.

[Schaumburger]

Yes, I have one. Word on the street is that light rail or commuter rail might be in the works for Kent and Ottawa Counties. There is supposed to be a report due back from The Kent County commission on the economic and societal impact a county and metro wide system will have on the community.

As you may know transit is a very successful and proved economic driver. When a state is concentrating on spurring economic activity and revitalization efforts transit is usually looked on as a tool.

Cross the fingers!

[Cato the Elder]

Well, it's about supply and demand and these two things when it comes to housing is skewed these days in Michigan by auto layoffs. So if you own a house that is commonly owned by your average autoworker with little to differentiate (gourmet kitchen, modern bathroom, etc), I would start sweating. HOWEVER, if you look in areas where autoworkers do not own a huge chunk of the houses, the market is doing fine if not spectacular like several years ago. When we looked last summer, the market was already a buyer's market, but I would say 95% of houses in the $150k-300k range were pretty much the same - ~1200 sq. ft. cookie-cutter bungalows/ranches with small rooms and old kitchens and bathrooms. In this market, these houses are a dime a dozen and only accentuate the buyer's market. We bought a 1700 sq. ft. 1920s colonial and promptly redid the kitchen and bathroom - high quality cherry, stainless, and tile and not the cheapo, college-town quality kitchens/bathrooms that people think will be their meal ticket b/c it's "new." Based on discussions with agents, I have no concerns that it would sell for a significant profit even in this market b/c there are very few houses like it. The demand is significantly less, but it's there and in my experience, it's the supply end that's even more mediocre. I wouldn't buy a <1200 sq. ft. or >3000 sq. ft. house right now - 3-4br houses will be the hot market for the next decade as the echo boomers come to age and start families.

[joenc]

Originally Posted by Schaumburger

As you may know transit is a very successful and proved economic driver!

Examples please.

Has Cleveland's transit line made Cleveland the place to be?

[magellan]

Originally Posted by joenc

Examples please.

Has Cleveland's transit line made Cleveland the place to be?

Easy,
- Look at any of the neighborhoods around the Chicago Transit Authority lines: blue, brown, red, orange, green: hottest neighborhoods in Chicago
- How about the Billions in development near the MAX line in Portland. Or the Billions along Portland's Streetcar system?
- $2 Billion of development and counting along Phoenix's light rail line, and its not even finished yet
- Salt Lake City's TRAX has pumped in hundreds of millions in development for Salt Lake City
- Denver's recent expansion underway of TREX is projected to spur tens of $Billions in new development

You can't pick one light rail line and base all arguments against light rail and economic development on that. It's like picking one bad airport and saying we should do away with jet travel.

[Schaumburger]

Especially, as West Michigan is hot. Yesterday, I discovered some graduates at my better half's college are moving to GR! I was floored when I found that out.

[joenc]

Originally Posted by magellan

Easy,
- Look at any of the neighborhoods around the Chicago Transit Authority lines: blue, brown, red, orange, green: hottest neighborhoods in Chicago
- How about the Billions in development near the MAX line in Portland. Or the Billions along Portland's Streetcar system?
- $2 Billion of development and counting along Phoenix's light rail line, and its not even finished yet
- Salt Lake City's TRAX has pumped in hundreds of millions in development for Salt Lake City
- Denver's recent expansion underway of TREX is projected to spur tens of $Billions in new development

You can't pick one light rail line and base all arguments against light rail and economic development on that. It's like picking one bad airport and saying we should do away with jet travel.

LRT is the latest urban planning fad and at its core, a novelty. Houston's line has been a ridership failure, Portland's isn't carrying as many people as they projected and ridership is declining. There is NO LRT line that is successful from a ridership standpoint, only a few meet projections.

You cannot claim that new development is only occurring because of the new transit lines. Atlanta has more new intown development than any of the cities you mentioned, aside from Chicago, and it's not happening because of the rail line. There is a rail line, but it is, for all intents and purposes, not possible to use and not used in the growth areas. It's looked down upon as underclass. The shift towards urban living is the reason development is happening.

Grand Rapids is a small city, with little density, and no real congestion problems. There is no possibility of LRT being faster than taking a car, no one will ride it. It is a complete and total waste of money.

If Michigan wants to slit its collective throat further, by all means it should continue.

GR does have some things it can improve instead, like the Airport, public schools, and highway infrastructure.

On a more positive note
From what I've heard, the higher education development in Grand Rapids is a great thing. The medical school downtown looks like it will be a terrific asset. That's a good direction for the city to go.

[randomguymike]

Originally Posted by joenc

LRT is the latest urban planning fad and at its core, a novelty. Houston's line has been a ridership failure, Portland's isn't carrying as many people as they projected and ridership is declining. There is NO LRT line that is successful from a ridership standpoint, only a few meet projections.

You cannot claim that new development is only occurring because of the new transit lines. Atlanta has more new intown development than any of the cities you mentioned, aside from Chicago, and it's not happening because of the rail line. There is a rail line, but it is, for all intents and purposes, not possible to use and not used in the growth areas. It's looked down upon as underclass. The shift towards urban living is the reason development is happening.

Grand Rapids is a small city, with little density, and no real congestion problems. There is no possibility of LRT being faster than taking a car, no one will ride it. It is a complete and total waste of money.

If Michigan wants to slit its collective throat further, by all means it should continue.

GR does have some things it can improve instead, like the Airport, public schools, and highway infrastructure.

On a more positive note
From what I've heard, the higher education development in Grand Rapids is a great thing. The medical school downtown looks like it will be a terrific asset. That's a good direction for the city to go.

I could not disagree with you more. While attending ASU for my MBA, the light rail was actively driving development in Tempe/Mesa/Phoenix. Apartment complexes were popping up, business parks were openning, etc.

Higher education is not a key to growth. Otherwise, Michigan would be miles ahead of Nevada, for example. Lets compare: K-Zoo College, UMich, MSU, Albion, etc to UNLV. I think you'd agree we're heads and shoulders better. Amazingly LV is drawing 6000 per month/week/whatever and we're not.

A lot of jobs are not being filled right now too becuase grads from our good schools are moving away. I look at my employer (largest private employer in Ann Arbor as of next month). We have three well paying (70K+) positions in my department alone we cannot find qualified applicants for. Its not that UMich is not producing them, its that those that are being produced are looking elswhere because there's no momentum here, no "cool" mass transit like NY/DC, no progressive attitude. So, higher education is working, but we're losing the grads to other areas. I imagine after a few years of not being able to staff the corporate office, we would move too. So, the two things work together. The only way to offst it is doing somethign that is trendy (not stupid stuff like cool cities, Dexter/Mson will NEVER be cool.)

I honestly think a viable mass transit connecting A2 & detroit & the North detroit suburbs would be very welcomed. It would not be profitable, and likely would not break even, but the total economic impact to the area would be very positive. It would also convince some of the young, urban class to stay here instead of flocking elsewhere. Its a matter of priorities and working on the assumption of doing something pro-active as opposed to sitting helplessly on the sidelines watching things go to crap.

All that being said, the housing market is undeniably bad right now. This year has been the worst of the last five in the Ann Abror area. http://www.arbormap.com/market.htm. My home alone has decreased about 30% in value since I bought in in Oct '05.

[Cato the Elder]

I honestly think a viable mass transit connecting A2 & detroit & the North detroit suburbs would be very welcomed.

More than the auto industry, in Metro Detroit, I am worried about how insular the suburbs (and especially A2 and UMich) are towards its surrounding area. I know for a fact that UMich looks down its nose at Wayne State like it's their red-headed stepbrother. For better or worse, urban centers are the gateway and "face" of a state/region to the rest of the world (and people in the world know Detroit, for better or worse, not GR). States such as Massachusetts have known this for a long time and even Pennsylvania has come to realize this. THIS is more a threat to MI's longterm recovery than anything else, IMHO.

[Schaumburger]

Originally Posted by joenc

LRT is the latest urban planning fad and at its core, a novelty. Houston's line has been a ridership failure, Portland's isn't carrying as many people as they projected and ridership is declining. There is NO LRT line that is successful from a ridership standpoint, only a few meet projections.

You cannot claim that new development is only occurring because of the new transit lines. Atlanta has more new intown development than any of the cities you mentioned, aside from Chicago, and it's not happening because of the rail line. There is a rail line, but it is, for all intents and purposes, not possible to use and not used in the growth areas. It's looked down upon as underclass. The shift towards urban living is the reason development is happening.

Grand Rapids is a small city, with little density, and no real congestion problems. There is no possibility of LRT being faster than taking a car, no one will ride it. It is a complete and total waste of money.

If Michigan wants to slit its collective throat further, by all means it should continue.

GR does have some things it can improve instead, like the Airport, public schools, and highway infrastructure.

On a more positive note
From what I've heard, the higher education development in Grand Rapids is a great thing. The medical school downtown looks like it will be a terrific asset. That's a good direction for the city to go.

I would appreciate any citation of sources.