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Old 08-14-2010, 09:19 AM
 
2,190 posts, read 6,773,223 times
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As I stated in other posts....

We're never going to get the results. But I like to see the how many profiles and permanent waivers we're issued from 7/01/09-6/30/10 compared to a year later.
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Old 08-14-2010, 10:54 AM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,013,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82 View Post
How does the AF mission differ from the aviation wings of the Marine Corps? If you're basing the requirement for physical fitness based on jobs, infantry only accounts for about 20% of USMC MOS (based on 03 MOS and 2009 USMC Almanac numbers). The overwhelming number of Marines are support jobs. Our standards are the most difficult, yet somehow seem to have smallest problems with physical fitness.

All of the AF physical fitness standards are doing is asking you to be healthy, Any healthy adult should have no problem with this. Don't you get 14:30 to do a 1.5 miles? You can't even ship to USMC training if you can't run it in under 13:30 (15 for female), do 44 crunches in 2 min, and 2 pull ups (12 second flex arm-hang for females). I have kids who when they joined the DEP were running 17+, or couldn't do pull-ups or crunches and it has never taken more than a couple of months to get them where they need to be.

The minimum requirement is just that, a minimum. Why would you pass the test if you failed an event? I hear where you coming from, but I don't see all the hate for something that's only going to make you better. The standards are achievable. What's the downside of this? You're being paid to be healthy.
Yep its the deployment to combat zones that they are looking at ;the same as with the army and marines.Fitness effect job performance except for a few jobs really.
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Old 08-14-2010, 11:30 AM
 
1,476 posts, read 4,034,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balad1 View Post
It's not an issue and is just common sense. The Army has had the same system for over 20 years.
With the difference of having 2 minutes instead of 1 to meet the minimum.
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Old 08-14-2010, 12:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Fitness effect job performance except for a few jobs really.
Depends how you look at. Overwhelmingly, if someone can only do 10 pushups in a minute vs 50, doesn't really accept the job. They are pitching that "pt culture" will help with a healthy lifestyle...Won't eat at buffets as much anymore, maybe you'll twice about getting drunk on a Tuesday night knowing you tough PT workout Wednesday morning. With certain jobs, perhaps they need you be as sharp as you can for important judgments and decisions. For the majority of jobs, it doesn't make a difference, you simple do what you were trained to do weather it's process a widget, turn a torque wrench or pass out a towel at the gym according to the regs not to reinvent the wheel.

It's now up to commanders to determine if you can do PT during duty hours. Pencil pushers generally work 40 hours a week and they'll probably be the ones to continue to be released for PT during duty hours. Who it really screws is the folks who work long hours such as maintenance, security forces and weapons. They work long days because they're undermanned. Since they're undermanned, they're probably not going to have the opportunity to do PT during their long shift. Tack another 90 minutes to their 12 hour day. That could be time he wanted to spend time with his family. How does that affect his morale?
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Old 08-14-2010, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,633 posts, read 4,393,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
Since they're undermanned, they're probably not going to have the opportunity to do PT during their long shift. Tack another 90 minutes to their 12 hour day. That could be time he wanted to spend time with his family. How does that affect his morale?
Rhetorical, but I'll answer. Probably negatively...

Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. He probably wants to not deploy to the desert, either, and has to. How does that affect his morale?

...

One of my ironclad rules when I was a company commander in the Army was, you don't get to ***** without proposing a realistic solution.

If you accept that there is a need for additional fitness in the Air Force-as your leadership clearly has- how would *you* propose getting it differently than what's already being done?
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Old 08-14-2010, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
9,371 posts, read 17,488,660 times
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While I fully support good health and fitness, I am seeing an increase in forced discharges for not meeting standards and profiles and other sketchy exemptions from testing, and inconsistances from tester to tester. It's funny how dozens of obese high ranking officers on my installation are not "failing" the tests, yet it's mostly junior enlisted who are being pushed out the door. I'm watching good workers being forced out because they failed by a very small margin. I would rather maintain a solid worker who has trouble meeting fitness standards, than hold onto some deadbeat who can score a 90 or better on his PT test.

My point here is, how many push-ups are required to jockey a desk all day? The likelihood of most AF personnel being put out in the field to hump a 70 pound pack is extremely slim.

Again, the AF loves to fix what isn't broken time and time again. Uniform changes, PT standards, AFSC's, unit names, logo's, etc. They waste more money with these changes, which are sometimes changed back to their original form, and then wonder why we have a budget crisis within the AF.

Case in point, when I first entered the AF, you had to do a 1.5 mile run annually. That was your PT test. Then they convinced us that cycle ergometry was the way to go. Spent millions on research, training, equipment, and implemenatation. They swore up and down that the cycle test was a more more accurate way to guage someone's overall fitness. Running was not a good indicator, and they considered it too much of a liability. After a few years of pumping us full of cycle rhetoric, and discharging members who couldn't pass their flawed test, they went back to the 1.5 mile run. Added some push-ups and sit-ups, and after a few more tweaks and changes and now we're at 2x a year testing (unless you score 90 or better, then you only test once) and suddenly running is a better indicator of overall fitness than cycling.

Then there's the PT uniform. It went from cotton shorts and tee's, to a ridiculously thick, uncomfortable and ill fitting combination of jacket, pants, and shorty shorts with a shirt that doesn't stretch. Now we're introducing yet another version of the PT uniform. With all of these uniform boards and research, you think they'd get it right the first time around, or even the second. Yet they love to beat that drum about saving resources, fraud-waste-abuse, and tightening our belts to meet budget constraints. If anyone ran a business this way they'd be bankrupt and heads would roll.
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Old 08-15-2010, 05:16 AM
 
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So 80% of 335,000 is 268,000 passing (with a few medically exempt, for now. Of course, they will not be able to hide out in this status for very long, they will either be medically cleared or they will be medically boarded out of the Air Force. The days of being non-worldwide qualified yet still hanging out is going to be few and far between, not the norm).

So out of the projected 69,000 that did not (will not) pass the first time, they still have a chance to retake and pass. I'd guess for most, failing is a serious wake up call and most will pass during the retake. Of course, there are some who do not care to invest the time or effort it takes to pass and they will be ushered out the door at some point.

I personally do not care if some Air Force missions require physical fitness or not, I still think it's a good idea for ALL airmen to be physically fit and maintain the properly fit military image.

When it is all said and done, I expect very few, perhaps 1-2% that will be booted due to failed PT standards. I think we can all walk around our base and pick out about 1% of the airmen that do not present a proper military image. Unfortunately, it's probably time for them to find a new career.
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Old 08-15-2010, 07:01 AM
 
2,190 posts, read 6,773,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
If you accept that there is a need for additional fitness in the Air Force-as your leadership clearly has- how would *you* propose getting it differently than what's already being done?
I don't accept there is a need...Are you happy with the way it is? I would change so much about the military but fully understand it will never happen...At my base's dining facility, there are current jobs openings to work food service, part time at $7.50ish an hour. They work along aside airman making fives times that amount. Some buildings I go to, there are airmen mopping the floors, mowing the grass and taking out the trash and building next door is paying a contractor $13/hr to do all that. I'm getting off topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
So 80% of 335,000 is 268,000 passing (with a few medically exempt, for now. Of course, they will not be able to hide out in this status for very long, they will either be medically cleared or they will be medically boarded out of the Air Force. The days of being non-worldwide qualified yet still hanging out is going to be few and far between, not the norm).

So out of the projected 69,000 that did not (will not) pass the first time, they still have a chance to retake and pass. I'd guess for most, failing is a serious wake up call and most will pass during the retake. Of course, there are some who do not care to invest the time or effort it takes to pass and they will be ushered out the door at some point.

I personally do not care if some Air Force missions require physical fitness or not, I still think it's a good idea for ALL airmen to be physically fit and maintain the properly fit military image.

When it is all said and done, I expect very few, perhaps 1-2% that will be booted due to failed PT standards. I think we can all walk around our base and pick out about 1% of the airmen that do not present a proper military image. Unfortunately, it's probably time for them to find a new career.
Remember, it's two strikes and you're out. Can I ask how you've come to 1-2%? The Air Force expected 33% and reports 20% failure rate...I personally know two people on permanent waivers. One had cancer another has back problems from a car accident. It's a separate debate if they should be issued waivers at all with the majority believe "no" however they exist and I predict will increase. Once someone hears a Dr. who grants someone a waiver, everyone with a similar condition transfers over to the Dr. in hopes of getting a waiver.
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Old 08-15-2010, 08:04 AM
 
3,071 posts, read 7,568,089 times
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I don't think it will be business as usual in the AF. I think the ones who think it is are in a for a rude awakening. As long the Honorable Mr. Gates is secretary of defense Generals will be held accountable and the effect will trickle down. Look at his firing of of the Secretary Army and the ouster of the Surgeon General over the neglect at Walter Reed. Look at his firing of the Secretary of the AF and Air Force Chief of Staff over the nuclear component SNAFU. Look at his removal of General Mckieran(sp?) over his lack of results in Afhanistan. See the Sun Tzu anectdote I posted above. I'm sure Mr. Gates has read the book.

Another crusade of Mr. Gates is to cut defense spending. If I recall correctly, each service is to reduce spending by $2 billion for the fy12 budgets. 100 billion by 2015, I think. How I believe this will affect the AF is that those positions done by Airmen that are doe by minimum wage workers in other services (i.e. passing out towels, checking IDs in the gym) will go away. AF leadership will do what needs to be done, if for no other reason, to protect their own necks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
I don't accept there is a need...Are you happy with the way it is? I would change so much about the military but fully understand it will never happen...At my base's dining facility, there are current jobs openings to work food service, part time at $7.50ish an hour. They work along aside airman making fives times that amount. Some buildings I go to, there are airmen mopping the floors, mowing the grass and taking out the trash and building next door is paying a contractor $13/hr to do all that. I'm getting off topic...



Remember, it's two strikes and you're out. Can I ask how you've come to 1-2%? The Air Force expected 33% and reports 20% failure rate...I personally know two people on permanent waivers. One had cancer another has back problems from a car accident. It's a separate debate if they should be issued waivers at all with the majority believe "no" however they exist and I predict will increase. Once someone hears a Dr. who grants someone a waiver, everyone with a similar condition transfers over to the Dr. in hopes of getting a waiver.
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Old 08-15-2010, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Earth
4,227 posts, read 20,285,035 times
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Coolhand I must admit you pretty much layed it out on the table there.

So far the biggest failure on the new PT test so I have been told, is the push ups. Apparently some people do not know how low they must go to "break the 90".

All too often I watch people do push ups, they don't keep their back straight, they don't get their upper arms to at least a 90 degrees. Not sure why - lack of strength? Or they just don't know/don't see themselves.
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