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Old 08-15-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Hawaii
1,707 posts, read 6,225,911 times
Reputation: 1049

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
I don't accept there is a need...Are you happy with the way it is? I would change so much about the military but fully understand it will never happen...At my base's dining facility, there are current jobs openings to work food service, part time at $7.50ish an hour. They work along aside airman making fives times that amount. Some buildings I go to, there are airmen mopping the floors, mowing the grass and taking out the trash and building next door is paying a contractor $13/hr to do all that. I'm getting off topic...



Remember, it's two strikes and you're out. Can I ask how you've come to 1-2%? The Air Force expected 33% and reports 20% failure rate...I personally know two people on permanent waivers. One had cancer another has back problems from a car accident. It's a separate debate if they should be issued waivers at all with the majority believe "no" however they exist and I predict will increase. Once someone hears a Dr. who grants someone a waiver, everyone with a similar condition transfers over to the Dr. in hopes of getting a waiver.
Medical waivers/profiles both temporary and permanent have been issued in the Army for over 20 years. It is a legitimate process that protects soldiers/Airmen from being injured. On the downside a major change in one's profile can lead to being non-deployable, unsuitable for a paticular job or even medical discharge. The bottomline being don't get a waiver unless you really need it.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:05 PM
 
2,190 posts, read 6,772,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balad1 View Post
Medical waivers/profiles both temporary and permanent have been issued in the Army for over 20 years. It is a legitimate process that protects soldiers/Airmen from being injured. On the downside a major change in one's profile can lead to being non-deployable, unsuitable for a paticular job or even medical discharge. The bottomline being don't get a waiver unless you really need it.
Correct, but if you're medically discharged you're entitled to financial compensation from the military and/or the VA and possibly free V.A. care for life. You also stopped deploying.

Under current rules, if you fail your second PT test at 19 years and 8 months, you may be forced to walk away with nothing.
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Hawaii
1,707 posts, read 6,225,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
Correct, but if you're medically discharged you're entitled to financial compensation from the military and/or the VA and possibly free V.A. care for life. You also stopped deploying.

Under current rules, if you fail your second PT test at 19 years and 8 months, you may be forced to walk away with nothing.
The Army has an 18 year lock in for retirement where weight and PT don't come into play for discharge; the AF doesn't have the same thing?
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,633 posts, read 4,391,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
Under current rules, if you fail your second PT test at 19 years and 8 months, you may be forced to walk away with nothing.
...that's a danger you run in *any* service. It comes with the job, that if you fail to meet standards-you're out with nothing (unless it's medical).

I sympathize that you think it's too over the top or tough. You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you, for a host of reasons, mostly the fact that Air Force members are being deployed to dusty crapholes where their ability to operate with little food, sleep, and under extreme stress is *directly affected* by their physical fitness.
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:57 PM
 
2,190 posts, read 6,772,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balad1 View Post
The Army has an 18 year lock in for retirement where weight and PT don't come into play for discharge; the AF doesn't have the same thing?
Good point I never looked it up, but if it is 18 years, I change my statement to 17 years 8 months...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
...that's a danger you run in *any* service. It comes with the job, that if you fail to meet standards-you're out with nothing (unless it's medical).

I sympathize that you think it's too over the top or tough. You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you, for a host of reasons, mostly the fact that Air Force members are being deployed to dusty crapholes where their ability to operate with little food, sleep, and under extreme stress is *directly affected* by their physical fitness.
It's the overwhelming majority of the Air Force who thinks this...PT over job performance. With the Air Force we have an annual performance reports where you get rated one-five, five being the best. They're saying that if you fail a PT test, you cannot get a five. Therefore if someone fails at PT, what incentive is there for a person work hard?
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Old 08-15-2010, 04:48 PM
 
3,071 posts, read 7,566,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJagMan View Post
Good point I never looked it up, but if it is 18 years, I change my statement to 17 years 8 months...



It's the overwhelming majority of the Air Force who thinks this...PT over job performance. With the Air Force we have an annual performance reports where you get rated one-five, five being the best. They're saying that if you fail a PT test, you cannot get a five. Therefore if someone fails at PT, what incentive is there for a person work hard?
That's still the same as the other services. If you fail the pft you are automatically ineligible for promotion if E4 or under. E5 and up (to include officers) get fitness reports (meaning fitness for duty not physical). If you fail a PFT (or the rifle range, or u are subject to disciplinary action) that's an adverse fitness report and you will not be promoted.

It's not an either/or thing. It's not PT over job performance. It's the whole person concept. One of the leadership principles whose requirements is to be both "technically and tactically proficient". It's not that if someone doesn't get a five, they won't work hard, it should be you work hard to get a five.

Setting aside what will happen if you fail the test. Setting aside that initially 20% already have. Do you truly think the test is that hard to pass? It seems the killer event is push ups. These can be built up in a relatively short amount of time with little effort. For example here are a couple tricks to build push-ups with minimal effort and time.

1.Cost of Entry: Every time you walk into your workplace, hose, bedroom, wherever you designate, you must do a max set of push ups.

2. commercial break:When watching tv, whenever there is a commerical you must perform pushups the entire commercial period or until fatigue. If playing a video game, you must do it between every level/cutscene.

3.Set number: whatever your goal number of pushups are do that many either b4 you go to bed or as soon as you wake up in the morning. take as many breaks as necessary but don't stop until you reach the number.

4. 4 quarters - Do 25 standard pushups, 25 decline, 25 incline, and 25 chair dips. Do this four times, resting between sets. If you don't have the time do it 1-3. Or do a 1-2 sets in the morning and 1-2 at night. Do not rest between each set of 25, but rest between each set of 100. Since you are focusing on slightly different muscle groups with each variation you should be able to get to 100 easier than if you just tried 100 standard pushups. At the same time you are engaging your upper body the entire time.

If the problem is form, and it's that widespread, that's a leadership issue. I don't care if you've been the Marine Corps 20 years, they still demonstrate and show what to do AND what not do prior to conducting every event for PFT/CFT.

=========================================

The onus is not just on the individual airmen though. If the AF wants to implement this fitness standards, they mus also implement the tools necessary for it to be reached. Meaning mandatory number of PT hours during the workday. About 3-5 hours through out the week. Meaning training the NCOs on physical fitness so that they may train the troops. Also a transitional period where the new PFT is conducted, but not counted. So that airmen, and better yet there leaderships, can see where the deficiencies are and take the necessary steps to correct them. They may have already done these things, but if they haven't they are setting their airmen up for failure.
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Old 08-15-2010, 06:36 PM
 
2,190 posts, read 6,772,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macjr82 View Post
Do you truly think the test is that hard to pass? It seems the killer event is push ups.
To comment about the push ups, I actually bought the $10 push up handles by weider for my airmen. The key to the handle is that you can use them anywhere as you don't put hands on the ground. As it turns out, everyone in the shop uses them at a minimum of once a week, completely self directed.

As far as it being hard to pass, I'm going a different direction altogether. 20% are failing, we still don't know how many are getting kicked out but lets use 10% for example...How many are actually talented airmen? It's not even taken into consideration.
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Old 08-17-2010, 03:49 AM
 
19 posts, read 71,758 times
Reputation: 28
Jag Man,

It's all speculation at this point about how many that will fail. I honestly think that the pass rate will be much higher after the initial failure. Some people need to be faced with serious consequences before they really buckle down and take this whole thing seriously. Some people are still fooling themselves into thinking that somehow, the Air Force will step in and save their career. After the first wave of dismissals, I think they will finally get it.

As far as the people getting waivers that they probably shouldn't have, it really angers me. As unfair as it may seem, I think it's time to really start medically retiring most people. Nobody should be medically unfit on active duty for significant periods of time. If we do away with most of the waivers, make them very hard to obtain, this will discourage the malingerers.
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Old 08-17-2010, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,633 posts, read 4,391,959 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
As unfair as it may seem, I think it's time to really start medically retiring most people. Nobody should be medically unfit on active duty for significant periods of time. If we do away with most of the waivers, make them very hard to obtain, this will discourage the malingerers.
The key words here are *medically* unfit.

For jobs like infantry, armor, etc. that are enormously physical, yes, you need to be able to step up. If you get broken in the service, and can still do some other non-combat job, it's completely appropriate to have a limited permanent profile. I suspect the Air Force is going to end up with a similar situation.

As long as you don't get slovenly fat, and PASS THE PT TEST (possibly including an alternate aerobic event), demonstrating you are in some shape you can stay-and that's fair.

For those who can't do anything at all, yes, consider retirement. If the service caused their injury, RETIREMENT-with money. They gave it a shot.

Throwing the word 'malingerer' around is pretty bold when you don't know that individuals medical situation. Malingerer is defined as 'someone shirking their duty by *feigning* illness or incapacity*. Some of them are hurt-permanently, or long term temporarily-but can still meet an accepted standard with some modification of their physical fitness training and testing.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:49 AM
 
19 posts, read 71,758 times
Reputation: 28
I never said that all personnel on medical waivers are malingerers. In fact, I would say that the vast majority are on legitimate waivers. But I have suspected a few over the years as they ducked out of deployments and forced others to go in their place. That is the problem I have with people on active duty who have permanent or long term medical waivers. They just increase the burden of deployments onto their peers.

My feeling is that if you can't deploy, or are not worldwide qualified, you should get out. Sorry if that offends anybody, but after countless deployments and 3 tours in Korea, I think the burden should be more fairly spread out. You can't do that with a significant number of people on profiles.
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