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Old 08-18-2010, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,633 posts, read 4,399,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
My feeling is that if you can't deploy, or are not worldwide qualified, you should get out. Sorry if that offends anybody, but after countless deployments and 3 tours in Korea, I think the burden should be more fairly spread out. You can't do that with a significant number of people on profiles.
You're making a bad assumption here-I think you are conflating *having* a profile with being nondeployable. The two are not synonymous.

It is completely possible for non-combat troops to have a very serious profile, yet still be able to deploy and meet the job requirements. My supervisors on my last tour in the middle east and my last tour in Korea were both on permanent profile: one was a Quartermaster (supply) Colonel, one was a Signal Lieutenant Colonel. The QM and I used to travel routinely and work out constantly. He couldn't run, but I assure you he could do pretty much everything else.
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:05 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
24,145 posts, read 38,928,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
As far as the people getting waivers that they probably shouldn't have, it really angers me. As unfair as it may seem, I think it's time to really start medically retiring most people. Nobody should be medically unfit on active duty for significant periods of time. If we do away with most of the waivers, make them very hard to obtain, this will discourage the malingerers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I never said that all personnel on medical waivers are malingerers. In fact, I would say that the vast majority are on legitimate waivers. But I have suspected a few over the years as they ducked out of deployments and forced others to go in their place. That is the problem I have with people on active duty who have permanent or long term medical waivers. They just increase the burden of deployments onto their peers.

My feeling is that if you can't deploy, or are not worldwide qualified, you should get out. Sorry if that offends anybody, but after countless deployments and 3 tours in Korea, I think the burden should be more fairly spread out. You can't do that with a significant number of people on profiles.
I was on an Army profile about 8 of my 22 years of continuous active duty.

I was drafted in a profile condition. Flat feet. It was not a problem initially, but as I got older the situation worsened. The only duty I could not always perform was the 2 mile PT Run. I managed to get my profile to read "Run at own pace or walk". Not a simple task in the Army bureaucracy. My practice PT was usually walking, my "for record" PT test was normally running (As the walk was more difficult for me to do).

I was never non-deployable. Should I have been medically retired? I don't think so, my situation never reached the point where I even had to appear before a medical board. I probably would have taken a medical retirement in my first year had it been offered with no guilt.

Yes, it seems unfair at times when someone appears to be beating the system due to some medical situation. But you don't know the entire situation and for the large part it is no ones business except for the appropriate medical personnel involved.

You may being making a lot of assumptions which may discredit those who serve honorably and have voluntarily tried their best.
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:46 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
24,145 posts, read 38,928,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
As well it should be, different missions, different standards. But it's clear the AF Chief of Staff was tailoring the AF standards after the Army.
Perhaps because the Army learned years ago that you need a Physical Training (PT) test which is easy to administer and grade. Still not apparently perfect, based on the complaints, but there was a time the Army PT test had the "Hand grenade throw", "Run dodge and jump", "Horizontal bars (the type with rotating sleeves)" and "Low crawl" (Plus the standard run) and I seem to recall the "Man Carry" which could be unfair or fairer depending on your weight and your cargo's weight...

I am not a physical fitness enthusiast, but I do some daily exercises, to try and maintain my health and weight, probably not enough, but I can appreciate the need for physical fitness...
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:10 AM
 
1,327 posts, read 1,829,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I personally do not care if some Air Force missions require physical fitness or not, I still think it's a good idea for ALL airmen to be physically fit and maintain the properly fit military image.
Following that line of thinking to its logical conclusion then we should be kicking out senior enlisted and flag officers on a daily basis, even if they somehow manage to pass the PT test.

As it's already been stated several times in this thread, the PT test should reflect a requirement for the nominal amount of effort it takes to do the jobs the AF requires. I personally think it should be location dependent. Allow the AF in general to give a nice cushy baseline, but if you're TAC-P or CCT then be held to a higher standard. If you're AMMO or CE then perhaps stick with the nominal run time, but amp up the pushups and add an additional pullup component. Using heavy machinery to load bombs or swinging a sledgehammer or using jackhammers all day has a totally different fitness requirement than a desk jockey that the bulk of the AF personnel turn into.
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Old 08-31-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,227 posts, read 20,306,752 times
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Just had one of the young guys from my shop do his PT test today. Out of 60 push ups done, only 47 were counted. According to him, the testers not only have you going down to make a perfect 90 degree angle but also come back up and virtually locking your arms before the next repetition. Guess now we know where the high failure rate of push ups comes from....so might as well get used to kissing the floor when you go down and locking them up coming up, as many people I've seen don't do this.

Another one of my shop co-workers does hers tomorrow...she's always gotten good PT scores but is nervous about the push ups....says if they fail her and she gets kicked out, she's going to beat the living daylights out of the tester.
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Old 08-31-2010, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Hawaii
1,707 posts, read 6,231,763 times
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I am sure the instructions for a correct push up aren't a secret.; as long as it's done to standard there's not an issue. The key to doing well on the push ups during testing is to do them to the standard when training.
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:57 AM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,633 posts, read 4,399,964 times
Reputation: 4214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez Nuttz View Post
Just had one of the young guys from my shop do his PT test today. Out of 60 push ups done, only 47 were counted. According to him, the testers not only have you going down to make a perfect 90 degree angle but also come back up and virtually locking your arms before the next repetition. Guess now we know where the high failure rate of push ups comes from....so might as well get used to kissing the floor when you go down and locking them up coming up, as many people I've seen don't do this.
I'm going to quote something from the Army PT manual. My assumption is that the Air Force has something similar that was clearly read before the test-if it wasn't, shame on the testers:

"On the command 'Go', begin the pushup by bending your elbows and lowering your entire body as a single unit until your upper arms are at least parallel to the ground. Then, return to the starting position by raising your entire body until your arms are fully extended."

In other words, what you described in terms that honestly make it sound like your looking for sympathy for your guy isn't controversial, and it's exactly how I took literally dozens of PT tests during my time in the Army. You get your arms parallel-yes, a perfect 90 degree angle-unless your chest literally prevents you (and no, aspiring bodybuilders-for 99 percent of the people out there, it won't)-and you lock out at the end of every pushup.

Train that way, it's hard to fail or even do poorly.
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:59 AM
 
1,327 posts, read 1,829,771 times
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Hell, they even do a quick demo to show you what they should look like. We've all been doing AF PT long enough that if you don't know what a good pushup looks like then it's your own damn fault at this point.
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Matthews, NC
14,693 posts, read 22,481,697 times
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The test changed (seemingly became harder) so naturally a higher percentage of people are going to fail. There have always been those who will do just enough to get by. They were probably barely passing the old test.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:52 PM
 
Location: massachusetts
2 posts, read 3,137 times
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I am currently raising cain with my safety office about the fitness program because its dangerous and encourages unhealthy behavior. I am in the Air National Guard, we are an older force, but not any less combat ready and much more experienced and knoweledgeable than our active duty counterparts. we excell on every deployment with and without active duty.

Anyway, here is the problem with it.

1. Situps are very hazardous to your back health. even when younger, you just don't pay the price for the damage until you hit your 40's.
2. Jogging on pavement is very bad for your knees, ankles and back and doesn't provide very much benefit for the damage they do.
3. The Air National Guard is providing no training at all on how to prepare for the test. doing situps to prepare for situp portion is worst thingg you can do. better to do core exercises that strengthen your core while spine is straight is best way to prepare and minimize the damage situps do. swimming and eliptical trainer should replace jogging.
4. everyone knows that when you fear losing your job, you will lie on the pre-screening form and put your health at risk. DC and a fire department have already had deaths because of this.

also, by encoraging a gym rat force, we will dumb down the air force and be less combat ready where it counts. ever notice the go to guys are usually not the best fit? its because they devote their time more to craft than to useless aestetics. Gym rats don't even have the necesary endurance to perform at a high level at extreme temperatures. I have worked construction my whole life from a brick laying family, gym rats don't have work endurance.

Ask any back, bone and joint specialist or physical therapsit. they will all tell you the fitness standards are jokes. All will tell you not to do situps.
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