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I think women SHOULD serve in any military specialty that they are qualified for. And I'm with DMarie123 on the PT vs job qualification discussion. I've always thought it unfair that combat restrictions prevented women from holding certain leadership jobs.
Thanks, Stillkit. I think I'll leave this one in place, though, since the discussion will be more appropriate since many of us here have military experience vs. the general population that frequents the politics & Other controversies forum.
This comes up every few years, and dies down just as quickly. This will probably do the same, especially with a Republican congress. Considering DADT barely squeezed by, and it had the full backing of the gay community – I don’t see a lot of feminist groups taking this up as a cause – I don’t think this will go much further anytime soon.
I had no problem with gay men in the military. I've got a few guys in my platoon who I think might be - either that, or they're just really bad at picking up dates. But while it will be a little weird for us, I think we'll handle it fine.
I can’t say the same about women in combat units. I’m sorry – I’ve served with women and most of them have been excellent soldiers. But the Infantry – where I am, 4th BCT 2nd ID – is the last place in the military where political correctness hasn’t taken root. Where a GI can relax in the barracks, smoke a cigarette, and tell some stories without worrying if he’ll offend sensibilities.
And believe it or not, yes, that makes a difference. In a combat unit, you have to feel 100% comfortable with your squadmates. I just can't imagine being that okay with a woman in my squad.
Also, it really upsets me how much easier the physical standards are for women. Even now, when they’re not in combat units – for example, to pass the APFT, I need to do about 40 pushups. A woman needs to do 17. I need to run 2 miles in about 16:30. A woman gets 20:00. It upsets me that they get it easier.
I don’t want to sound misogynistic or overreactive about this. I don’t think this will happen any time soon – at least, not in the few years I’ve got left on my hitch. And I hope I didn’t offend anyone – that was not my intent.
I see what you are saying, but please tell me you are aware of the phsyiological differences b/w males & females?
Being a female who constantly passed up males in the APFT run, I found surpassing the standards to be a matter of personal pride. I also found as an officer I had no choice but to exceed the standard so when I stood in front of the 50% or more who failed (both men & women), it was not hyprocritical in nature.
The APFT gets a bum rap b/c many of the soldiers take it as a joke. There is no serious enough consequence for not passing & the standards are low across the border. I hated the morning of APFT as I would start to get phone calls around 3/4am about needing to go to sick call or child came down w/ a fever...a list of excuses that were not allowed & I'd have to hunt down soldiers during the day.
As for women in combat. They've been indirectly in combat units for yrs, especially when they arranged support batallions a few yrs ago.
Do I think it is the right place? Nope. The political correctness that permeates the military hinders proper correction of issues when males & females are combined. I do not need a male or female being concerned about their choice of words when in a life or death situation. A commander does not need to worry about letters to congressmen or if a female is pregnant when planning operations.
It's easy to side w/ women being in combat when we are sitting in our living rooms or kitchens, nice warm & cozy w/ our stomachs full & not in direct danger. It is another to consider the ramifications in a remote outpost in Afghanistan.
There may be some women who would do outstanding jobs in combat. There are many who want to prove a point & that is dangerous.
My dh was a tanker & lost many close friends in Iraq & Afghanistan. Don't even get him started w/ women in combat or DADT. It has nothing to do w/ "fear" but reality.
Just b/c a woman can do something does not mean a woman should do it. And this is coming from a ABN/AASLT female who served in the Army.
As for women in combat. They've been indirectly in combat units for yrs, especially when they arranged support batallions a few yrs ago.
More and more women are becoming directly in combat units. Only the military calls it being "attached" because they aren't technically supposed to be there so they have to find some way around it.
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The political correctness that permeates the military hinders proper correction of issues when males & females are combined. I do not need a male or female being concerned about their choice of words when in a life or death situation.
I do think that the military, and even the civilian world, is way too PC for our own good. However, I really would find it hard to believe that when it came to a life or death situation, people would find time to nitpick and get offended by what people are saying during it. Anyone who would I don't think has actually been in a life or death situation and shouldn't be in the military period. I think any woman who finds herself in the military and especially attached (or a part of if this passes) to a combat arms unit needs to be aware that she'll need to be thick-skinned before signing onto it. That's why as I mentioned earlier, the CSM was warning females to be prepared for that when they were getting attached to these units and if they have a problem with it, not to volunteer for this role because they don't want the guys to feel like they have to be on guard around their own teammates.
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or if a female is pregnant when planning operations.
I agree on that and it's why I wish there would be stricter punishments for pregnancy overseas and not let it be used just as a way to get out of that deployment. This is something that would have to be touched on before they gave the go-ahead for women to be able to have a combat arms MOS. This goes for both females and males. Because if males are concerned that a pregnant female will leave them undermanned (which is true, it would) then they have to stop being active participants in helping that female to get pregnant.
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It's easy to side w/ women being in combat when we are sitting in our living rooms or kitchens, nice warm & cozy w/ our stomachs full & not in direct danger. It is another to consider the ramifications in a remote outpost in Afghanistan.
Well I do know of plenty of males and females who feel that women should be allowed in combat arms MOSs who are either currently or were before overseas. As mentioned before, there are still lots of examples of women being in direct danger even without having a combat arms MOS and they've held their own. Also again even without having those specific MOSs, they're are still women to be found on those remote outposts in Afghanistan where combat directly affects them.
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There are many who want to prove a point & that is dangerous.
It is dangerous...however, this is hardly something that just applies to women. There are men who do the same and are no less dangerous. Just as there are women who want to do the job without any fanfare because it's about the mission not some kind of "look at me, I'm just like guys" point.
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My dh was a tanker & lost many close friends in Iraq & Afghanistan. Don't even get him started w/ women in combat or DADT. It has nothing to do w/ "fear" but reality.
Yes, and I've met guys who have been through the same experiences as your dh and apparently feel the opposite of him.
Just out of curiosity- does it irk you that a 50 year old has different fitness standards than an 18 year old? That they get it easier? Or is that OK because you realize a 50 year old body has different thresholds?
How many 50 year olds see the same combat as a 25 year old? With mandatory retirement ages and whatnot, you don't see many 50 year olds - at least enlisted - period.
I've been talking with some buddies about it, and most of them aren't in favor. But I've thought about it. If they had to do the same physical requirements as us, and the politically correct gender stuff got eased (a bit), I think I could live with it. Though, like I said, I don't see it happening. The military doesn't like change, and for the next year just winding down DADT will be taxing.
But I definitely agree about the promotion thing. Guys - at least the ones who stick with it - climb the ranks far faster in combat arms, and it's not fair that it's closed to women. Something should be done about that, even if they don't lift the restrictions.
Just out of curiosity- does it irk you that a 50 year old has different fitness standards than an 18 year old? That they get it easier? Or is that OK because you realize a 50 year old body has different thresholds?
An 18 yr old and a 50 yr old are not competing for the same promotion slots, so the imbalance in PFT standards is not as glaring. Generally they will be competing with others in their same age range for promotion slots.
But a male and a female of the same age very well can be competing for the same slot, and the issue remains that the female can do worse on the actual test but get a better score and get the promotion.
There have also been reports suggesting that a far greater percentage of female Marines max the flexed arm hang as the percentage of male Marines who max the pull ups.
An 18 yr old and a 50 yr old are not competing for the same promotion slots, so the imbalance in PFT standards is not as glaring. Generally they will be competing with others in their same age range for promotion slots.
But a male and a female of the same age very well can be competing for the same slot, and the issue remains that the female can do worse on the actual test but get a better score and get the promotion.
There have also been reports suggesting that a far greater percentage of female Marines max the flexed arm hang as the percentage of male Marines who max the pull ups.
I met very few female Marines that could not max the flexed arm hang. It's a joke. I also know a lot of female Marines that could still pass the pull ups and even max it. Most of the female Marines I knew could max the PFT because it was pretty darn easy compared to our regular PT or even worse - a company run!
Thanks, Stillkit. I think I'll leave this one in place, though, since the discussion will be more appropriate since many of us here have military experience vs. the general population that frequents the politics & Other controversies forum.
I'm ex military infantry, want a test to see if woman are up to the iinfantry in physical matters easy.
80lb ruck plus weapon and light load out of ammo.
Total weight carried 90 lb, one 8 K forced march on the road, maximum time allowed 72 minutes.
If they can pass that they are worth training to be infantry.
Only weigh 120lb, welcome to reality.
Or should it be gender normed because women would be carrying a higher % of their body weight ?
I'm ex military infantry, want a test to see if woman are up to the iinfantry in physical matters easy.
80lb ruck plus weapon and light load out of ammo.
Total weight carried 90 lb, one 8 K forced march on the road, maximum time allowed 72 minutes.
If they can pass that they are worth training to be infantry.
Only weigh 120lb, welcome to reality.
Or should it be gender normed because women would be carrying a higher % of their body weight ?
Not all women only weigh 120 pounds. Some weigh 160-180-and I'm not talking fat.
Not all men weigh 160-180. Some only weigh 120 pounds.
Welcome to reality.
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