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Old 09-13-2011, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
9,011 posts, read 11,746,014 times
Reputation: 3775
Default OK here is a military question about the M16A2/A4 models being replaced by the H&K 416

One thing that gets me is Heckler & Koch HK416 is still 5.56mm and why is the HK417 which is 7.62mm and packs a better punch than the current NATO 5.56mm round where it seems lacking...

As people that have lots of experience with the current 5.56 and know the ins and outs of the 7.62... do you think going to the larger round would of been a good idea?
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:02 PM
 
14,966 posts, read 5,196,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
One thing that gets me is Heckler & Koch HK416 is still 5.56mm and why is the HK417 which is 7.62mm and packs a better punch than the current NATO 5.56mm round where it seems lacking...

As people that have lots of experience with the current 5.56 and know the ins and outs of the 7.62... do you think going to the larger round would of been a good idea?
As a retied Army guy....yep I agree.....the larger round is better..

IMHO, the people who make these decisions will not change it until out, which means it won't change until they are gone....

A few things you need to remember, weight is big deal, kick is a big deal, and numerous others in this same category...

Also, you have to remember, the Army DOES not like tho change things....Just look at the darn beret.....
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:19 PM
 
Location: New Mexico USA
16,469 posts, read 16,215,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
One thing that gets me is Heckler & Koch HK416 is still 5.56mm and why is the HK417 which is 7.62mm and packs a better punch than the current NATO 5.56mm round where it seems lacking...
The HK416 is an assault rifle designed and manufactured by Heckler & Koch and uses the 5.56x45mm NATO round. It is a modified version of the American M4 carbine with many changes. The HK417 is a larger version of the HK416 chambered for the full-size 7.62x51mm NATO rifle cartridge.

It is not unusual to have various model firearms available in several calibers. I have owned a few handguns available in different calibers, I still own a Walther PPK .380 pistol which is available in .32 or even .22 calibers.

So buy whichever one you want... Both of those models are the civilian versions.

But this is not a firearm forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
As people that have lots of experience with the current 5.56 and know the ins and outs of the 7.62... do you think going to the larger round would of been a good idea?
Depends on the target, mission, capabilities etc. I have fired the M60 Machine Gun and the M14 rifle which which were used at the same time while I was in the military and they both used the 7.62 round. I also carried the M16... I served 22+ years 1968 to 1990.


The debate over the military use of 7.62mm versus 5.56mm rounds has been going on since the United States developed the round (official NATO nomenclature 5.56 NATO) in the 60's. When the 5.56 bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue, fragmentation creates a rapid transfer of energy which can result in dramatic wounding effects. There has been recent discussions of the 5.56 having less penetrating power than the heavier 7.62mm. One main question is, does a soldier really want to sacrifice the superior range and accuracy of the 5.56mm, and carry 660 rounds of 5.56mm or 280 rounds of 7.62mm as in the old M14.


Rich
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:06 AM
 
4,553 posts, read 3,565,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOlover View Post
One thing that gets me is Heckler & Koch HK416 is still 5.56mm and why is the HK417 which is 7.62mm and packs a better punch than the current NATO 5.56mm round where it seems lacking...

As people that have lots of experience with the current 5.56 and know the ins and outs of the 7.62... do you think going to the larger round would of been a good idea?

All I know is this:

It takes 5-7 rounds of SS109 (5.56) into someone's chest to put them down.


It also seems (As a rule) to only take one round of 7.62x51.

And 5 rounds of 5.56 weigh more than one round of 308, as well as requiring more time dedicated to a single target, and more time exposed while dealing with a single target.

I will never again willingly enter into combat with a .223/5.56 caliber weapon.

Make mine a thirty cal.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:53 AM
 
4,553 posts, read 3,565,069 times
Reputation: 5108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
The HK416 is an assault rifle designed and manufactured by Heckler & Koch and uses the 5.56x45mm NATO round. It is a modified version of the American M4 carbine with many changes. The HK417 is a larger version of the HK416 chambered for the full-size 7.62x51mm NATO rifle cartridge.

It is not unusual to have various model firearms available in several calibers. I have owned a few handguns available in different calibers, I still own a Walther PPK .380 pistol which is available in .32 or even .22 calibers.

So buy whichever one you want... Both of those models are the civilian versions.

But this is not a firearm forum.



Depends on the target, mission, capabilities etc. I have fired the M60 Machine Gun and the M14 rifle which which were used at the same time while I was in the military and they both used the 7.62 round. I also carried the M16... I served 22+ years 1968 to 1990.


The debate over the military use of 7.62mm versus 5.56mm rounds has been going on since the United States developed the round (official NATO nomenclature 5.56 NATO) in the 60's. When the 5.56 bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue, fragmentation creates a rapid transfer of energy which can result in dramatic wounding effects. There has been recent discussions of the 5.56 having less penetrating power than the heavier 7.62mm. One main question is, does a soldier really want to sacrifice the superior range and accuracy of the 5.56mm, and carry 660 rounds of 5.56mm or 280 rounds of 7.62mm as in the old M14.


Rich
Okkkk....

What are these falsehoods.....
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Old 09-14-2011, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
9,011 posts, read 11,746,014 times
Reputation: 3775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
The HK416 is an assault rifle designed and manufactured by Heckler & Koch and uses the 5.56x45mm NATO round. It is a modified version of the American M4 carbine with many changes. The HK417 is a larger version of the HK416 chambered for the full-size 7.62x51mm NATO rifle cartridge.

It is not unusual to have various model firearms available in several calibers. I have owned a few handguns available in different calibers, I still own a Walther PPK .380 pistol which is available in .32 or even .22 calibers.

So buy whichever one you want... Both of those models are the civilian versions.

But this is not a firearm forum.



Depends on the target, mission, capabilities etc. I have fired the M60 Machine Gun and the M14 rifle which which were used at the same time while I was in the military and they both used the 7.62 round. I also carried the M16... I served 22+ years 1968 to 1990.


The debate over the military use of 7.62mm versus 5.56mm rounds has been going on since the United States developed the round (official NATO nomenclature 5.56 NATO) in the 60's. When the 5.56 bullet impacts at high velocity and yaws in tissue, fragmentation creates a rapid transfer of energy which can result in dramatic wounding effects. There has been recent discussions of the 5.56 having less penetrating power than the heavier 7.62mm. One main question is, does a soldier really want to sacrifice the superior range and accuracy of the 5.56mm, and carry 660 rounds of 5.56mm or 280 rounds of 7.62mm as in the old M14.


Rich
Yeah there was a debate about the current C7 (M16A2) and C8 (M16A4) and the HK416 and HK417 on the Canadian forces site and the response was mixed as well..anyways I thank all of you for serving and your input
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:18 PM
 
Location: SWUS
5,385 posts, read 4,053,586 times
Reputation: 5628
Actually, the 7.62x51 round's only disadvantage is the weight... it pretty much out-performs the 223 in every other way, I believe. heavier weight= less susceptible to wind, and similar distances will be had by both, with the 7.62 round coming out as a bit more accurate and a bit longer-distance.

5.56 rounds are hotter-shooting though, I believe the standard 5.56 NATO round comes out of the barrel at around 3200 FPS (but remember, that is USUALLY only when you're using an 18"+ barrel)
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