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Old 10-14-2013, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, NYC, and LV
2,037 posts, read 2,450,198 times
Reputation: 1128

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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
probably fly boy officers
True, I do the background investigations for security clearances and they AF dudes live very good. I saw their base housing and was shocked at how nice it was.

After 1700 the base is largely a ghost town too!!
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Florida
3,192 posts, read 4,234,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie1946 View Post
Officers are paid very well. The problem is not the pay, it is there are way too many of them especially at the field grade and flag ranks. Cut half of that crowd and put it the money to other uses.

The military offers a clear path on performance for promotion. Promotion is not guaranteed, but you can know the system, the rules etc.
I believe the USAF has the highest % of Officers in all the branches. If you really want to save $, look at what we pay for stuff, at least in the Army, we pay $1.30 for a set of foam ear plugs that cost $.30 and $5.00 for a $.50 Skill Craft pen. On top of that, the pens suck! If you saw how much we paid for things that are much much cheaper in the civilian world, you'd just flip.

The path isn't exactly that clear cut, I can't speak for the other services but at least for the Army, you can be promoted up to E6 on your own by your file, standing in front of a board, answering questions, etc... E7 and above is done by a Department of the Army (DA) level board where you are not present. So do politics become involved? I'm sure they are, know someone on the board and your name is kept in the promote list.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, NYC, and LV
2,037 posts, read 2,450,198 times
Reputation: 1128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyramidsurf View Post
I agree with this. O pay starts out high, but once you get to the O-6 and above level, you're very underpaid compared to civilians with similar levels of responsibilities. You're basically a corporate executive but only making 200-300K a year.
Do you really think every 0-6 would be a C-level executive? If you stay out of trouble, are marginally proficient, you can be an 0-6 in 20 years...Flag officer rank is different, I have met very few idiot Generals (none), although I have met a few 1 star political animals who seem to be bureaucrats without peer, but 0-6...half the 0-6s at ISAF HQ were essentially unfit for a command commensurate with their rank so they manage a team of 3 power point commandos and just create more unnecessary work.

In the civilian world you can be fired for nothing, for not being productive-- in the military you need to screw up and **** people off to get fired above 0-5.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie, FL
193 posts, read 315,298 times
Reputation: 262
In 1990, I bought a 1982 Mercedes 240D, a diesel 4 cyl 4 door car for $5,000.00. In Europe, this car would be used for a taxi cab. They are safely built, roomy, comfortable, run for ever, and get 26 mpg. Parts are expensive to import, if you need them and none are in the junk yard. So much for illusions of grandeur. When I got married, my wife made me get rid of it cause it smelled of diesel fuel.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:11 AM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
14,560 posts, read 6,698,475 times
Reputation: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army_Guy View Post
I believe the USAF has the highest % of Officers in all the branches...
True. However, of all of the services, the Air Force sends the highest percentage directly into combat. Can't be a pilot in the USAF unless you're an officer.

As a commander my OPR duty description read "Directly responsible for assets valued at over three billion dollars and more than 2500 personnel..." That's actually a low number compared to some of my peers. I don't know what a CEO or COO makes at a comparable business but I suspect it's a lot more, perhaps by an order of magnitude of ten or even a hundred, including those bonuses and perks they seem to get, even if their business is failing.

When I was commissioned I made $918 a month, plus BAH/BAQ/VHA offset (lived on-base initially so that was minimal) and later received flight pay. It was about $1200 a month gross. I was making $900 gross right before I entered the AF (early 80s, Reagan's first term, old-timers will fondly remember those halcyon days) working two jobs at less than $5 an hour. It wasn't until I made O-3 with a sign-on bonus as a pilot that the pay started to get comparable to outside the gates.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:18 AM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
14,560 posts, read 6,698,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Datafeed View Post
Don't blame the man blame the system..I guess....free this free that..guess what, somebodies gotta pay for it...

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I just wish some of the spineless leadership we have in office would change the system...if you were outside the wire and saw action then ok, PTSD is real; if you got your hand blown off--as I did--you should get money for a severed limb...but all of these BS subjective injuries have got to go...whats up with personal responsibility? When you join the service you should accept the risk of what comes with it...not saying that you should not get compensated for legit injuries.

And to get a FED job these days you almost need the Veterans points...
Absolutely. I work with a guy who was in tankers. He retired and gets 100% disability for SLEEP APNEA. F*****n' SLEEP APNEA. Did tanker operations cause it? No, but as it manifested itself during his 20 years in, it's considered "service related". Something is very wrong with a system like that, and after flying F-16s for 14 years in a career nearly twice that I cannot get compensation for my neck; all those G's have jacked it up somewhat. However, I am fully functional, don't have any pain, and am not interested in sponging off the taxpayer after having had the priveldge of operating some of the greatest flying machines ever invented.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, NYC, and LV
2,037 posts, read 2,450,198 times
Reputation: 1128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
True. However, of all of the services, the Air Force sends the highest percentage directly into combat. Can't be a pilot in the USAF unless you're an officer.

As a commander my OPR duty description read "Directly responsible for assets valued at over three billion dollars and more than 2500 personnel..." That's actually a low number compared to some of my peers. I don't know what a CEO or COO makes at a comparable business but I suspect it's a lot more, perhaps by an order of magnitude of ten or even a hundred, including those bonuses and perks they seem to get, even if their business is failing.

When I was commissioned I made $918 a month, plus BAH/BAQ/VHA offset (lived on-base initially so that was minimal) and later received flight pay. It was about $1200 a month gross. I was making $900 gross right before I entered the AF (early 80s, Reagan's first term, old-timers will fondly remember those halcyon days) working two jobs at less than $5 an hour. It wasn't until I made O-3 with a sign-on bonus as a pilot that the pay started to get comparable to outside the gates.
Combat...like being a grunt in Helmand...now those guys are underpaid...a piliot chilling at KAF, drinking Starbucks, jaw jacking with the Aussie nurses, and drinking the Black label of the State Dept dude in his 500 suit...please, Sir. ..

The Golden Parachute you speak of is only for top level types...and it ain't like it used to be, I saw the CFO of Oakley sitting in coach a few months ago...


when was the last time a pilot got shot down by a MIG? Scott Grady was a bad pilot...

And you are not really running your business...you are administering a system for someone else....
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Bangkok, NYC, and LV
2,037 posts, read 2,450,198 times
Reputation: 1128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
Absolutely. I work with a guy who was in tankers. He retired and gets 100% disability for SLEEP APNEA. F*****n' SLEEP APNEA. Did tanker operations cause it? No, but as it manifested itself during his 20 years in, it's considered "service related". Something is very wrong with a system like that, and after flying F-16s for 14 years I cannot get compensation for my neck; all those G's have jacked it up somewhat. However, I am fully functional, don't have any pain, and am not interested in sponging off the taxpayer after having had the priveldge of operating some of the greatest flying machines ever invented.
You are an honest man, Sir....not everybody is...no matter what party they affiliate with or if they are a corporal or a colonel...
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:32 AM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
14,560 posts, read 6,698,475 times
Reputation: 6511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datafeed View Post
Combat...like being a grunt in Helmand...now those guys are underpaid...a piliot chilling at KAF, drinking Starbucks, jaw jacking with the Aussie nurses, and drinking the Black label of the State Dept dude in his 500 suit...please, Sir. ..

The Golden Parachute you speak of is only for top level types...and it ain't like it used to be, I saw the CFO of Oakley sitting in coach a few months ago...


when was the last time a pilot got shot down by a MIG? Scott Grady was a bad pilot...

And you are not really running your business...you are administering a system for someone else....
I'll ignore that as I raise a glass to Steve Phyllis, KIA 1991. A close friend. SAM loss. I agree that the grunt is underpaid (BTW, I have been a front-line ALO as well in my career), but I guess the same can be said of a beat cop in South Central or a Border Patrol agent (I work with someone who did both as well as was a CCT in the USAF).

As for running a business, an O-6 who screws up usually loses his command, seen it several times. A CEO who runs his company into the ground often receives a generous severance package and is hired somewhere else. Now, my business I did wasn't just administering... as commander it was my decisions that affected the wing's success or failure. True, within the guidance of the NAF and MAJCOM and of course the national command authorities, but most equivalent businesses are organized similarly, at the level of authority I possessed and executed.

On topic, I DO believe the military is underpaid, and that the bonuses and compensation are appropriate. I also believe more should be done for the E-1 through E-5 and O-1/W-1 through O-3/W-3 levels.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:40 PM
 
175 posts, read 261,317 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyramidsurf View Post
But who is ultimately responsible? An enlisted guy isn't the one who answers to the CO about what happened. Just like the 1sg or CMC is not going to be going to meetings with the Commodore or answering to Admirals.

No one is saying enlisted aren't capable. It's the expectations placed on Officers. Are you saying you went on missions with no Officers at all? I've never seen that happen.
I have no idea when it comes to Navy ranks but again I'm going to say situation dependent. I've seen Enlisted getting called into the Commander's office and called to task for things that have happened plenty of times, sometimes with the PL there, sometimes not. As for the meetings themselves, while an Enlisted isn't going to go into an Officer only meeting, what is reported to the CO, the BC, and on up may sometimes end up all or mostly dependent on what an Enlisted person originally says happened if another Officer wasn't present to witness it. I've also seen Officers who have thrown Enlisted under the bus to escape responsibility for what they did or failed to do. Again I'm not saying that's all Officers by any means but there are certainly bad seeds out there who don't actually fulfill anywhere near the amount of responsibility that they're getting paid for.

For your second comment, yes there were a good number of missions per week that had no Officers on them. We were at a Company level outpost where we only had 2 and a half Platoons there due to us also owning a Platoon level outpost 10 miles down the road where the rest of our Company was at. Each Squad had their own village assigned to them. We had 5-7 dismounted patrols going out a day (not including the many QRF missions we had to pull). There was no way each PL was going to be able to go out with every single one of the Squads in his Platoon every time they went out which left just the Enlisted going out.
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