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Old 01-31-2014, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
I don't care what you claim... How much experience you claim. Your claimed 100% is pure and simple bull... And it helps no one spouting that crap.
Huh, what is it that you feel is "simple bull"? I spent 26 years on active duty and the last 15 were in Recruiting (I retired recently). What is your "claim" that makes you more knowledgeable on the subject?

I dealt with it EVERY day for 15 years. The services need to fill certain jobs that are not popular (and LOTS of them) so they offer them up to applicants and release the fewer popular jobs slowly. Applicants who are only offered the crappy jobs have to be sold all kinds of BS as to why they should take that job now and told they will be able to do something about it at a later date.

"Take it now and we'll get it changed before you ship", "Take it now and you can change it in boot camp", "Take it now and you can cross-train out of it", "Take this Security Forces Job now and you'll be doing criminal investigations as soon as you get out of tech school", "Take that job now and you'll have time to figure out what you really want to do and can switch later", etc.

Recruiters are put under extreme pressure to meet recruiting goals and those goals include filling the crappy jobs needed by each service. If there isn't someone in the supervisory chain of command to nip things like this in the bud the omissions and half truths from Recruiters begin to get much larger.

My post wasn't indicating that all Recruiters are doing this, as I stated, this problem is caused by Recruiters not giving applicants the real story. In my 15 years I can't remember applicants wanting to switch jobs when they got the job they wanted, however, I had thousands want to switch their jobs that were sold by my Recruiters on doing something they didn't actually want to do.

I really don't understand why you feel this is crap that helps no one...It was directed to help the OP who didn't seem to understand why he finds himself in this situation and seemed to be blaming the Recruits for his and their frustrations when it is caused by the way Recruiters are pushed to meet their goals.

Edited to add: Not to mention, my information helps recruits understand that they are the only one looking out for THEIR best interest during the recruiting process. The Recruiter is looking out for his and the services best interest as that is what he or she gets paid to do. While some recruiters are better than others, they all get paid to recruit to the needs of the service and that often forces recruiters to omit or distort the truth to get applicants to agree to the job being offered.

Last edited by LBTRS; 01-31-2014 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:16 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
7,625 posts, read 13,983,366 times
Reputation: 18670
Wow...with your attitude posted above, I am ever so grateful you have retired...anyone spending 15 yrs in recruiting service with your attitude that 100% of these problems are on the recruiter had to be a large part of the problem you suggest.

MY post is not out of frustration, but trying to help those who are THINKING of joining the military protect themselves from the type of issues they face once in training, believing for whatever reason it is as simple as asking to reclass. Nearly impossible these days. FACT!!!!!! If you want something other than what you are signing up for as a guaranteed AFSC, you need to accept the fact there is potential for delays in enlistment if you are not willing to serve in an AFSC that is trying to fill at the time you are looking for a billet, or consider coming in Open General and roll the dice praying for an AFSC you will enjoy if that is an option. ALSO, it is important for all recruits to understand that ASFAB scores will open/close doors for you to AFSC's you might want to consider, so it is ALWAYS in your best interest to get a study guide and STUDY before testing to rate as high a grade as possible, allowing you much more to choose from in the way of potential career paths.

ANY recruit needs to remember THEY signed their name on that AFSC guaranteed job contract, so regardless of "excuse" THEY will be the one required to live with that commitment.

I know as jobs become harder to come by in the military, that there will be those that will do anything to get in quicker, trying to avoid delays in enlistment; have heard stories about someone who knew someone who figured out how to "work the system" and, yes, are even gullible enough to believe those selling them a line just to meet their recruiting quotas.

The reason for my original post? To help those that are THINKING ABOUT JOINING the military during this huge drawdown and budget cut period to understand that, despite what you think/have heard/hope for, if you are not interested in the job you signed up for, you will be unhappy with the outcome hoping to change AFSC's once in training status....not to debate some bitter retiree about what the cause of the issue might be.

Last edited by Paka; 02-01-2014 at 01:26 AM..
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
The two of you must not be understanding my posts. I can assure you I'm not bitter in the least, I enjoyed my 26 years on active duty and my 15 years in Recruiting. So let me get this straight, you're grateful that I retired because I worked to keep my Recruiters honest in their dealings with their recruits???

It is obvious neither of you were ever Recruiters or you would understand exactly what I'm saying and wouldn't be taking offense to it.

Answer me this...if a young person is told by a Recruiter "take this job now and it gets you in the door and you can switch in boot camp" (just as you said is happening) and the young person trusts that the recruiter is being honest and follows that advice....is it the Recruiters fault for lying to the kid or is it the kids fault for listening to what the "expert" told him to do?

Again, I'm baffled that the two of you are taking exception to my point that Recruiters are pushed way too hard to meet the services goals which results in misinformation being given to kids that show up at your desk and want to exercise the option their Recruiter told them they would be able to do.

You're grateful that I'm retired, yet I'm the very one that insisted my Recruiters did the right thing so you didn't have my recruits at your desk wanting to reclass out of their jobs. I'm very confused by your position...
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:31 PM
 
8,768 posts, read 10,329,110 times
Reputation: 13822
I do put some blame on the recruiters. A person signing a contract should understand they are bound by that contract. If they are under some impression that switching the terms of the contract is permissible; well, that had to come from somewhere.

Was in Uncle Joe who was in the AF from 1968-1972 when switching from one AFSC to another wasn’t that hard especially if it was for a wide open position? Sure Uncle Joe signed up for a position but decided he rather do something else. During that time switching wasn’t hard and many entered with NO job selected. We had an active war with a draft going on and recruits were not walking in the doors.

Maybe they heard it from the guy who served when military service wasn’t this glorified patriotic thing to do. They still allowed people to select fields versus jobs. You still had the ability to switch around during basic because there were always vacancies.

Is it someone reading some forum where they keep reading people saying it’s possible? Anyone knows that you really have to be cautious about what’s posted on a forum.

Or, did they hesitate and procrastinate over the job they wanted? Maybe it was the recruiter who didn’t want this one thinking too much on jobs to the point of not signing up? I can see (and I know it has happen) that recruiter will allude to the fact that you can change jobs.

Go back and read all the post from those thinking of joining and was told this or that by the recruiter; the most common answer is "Don’t trust anything a recruiter tells you". Even today we all laugh when we hear little Bobby (who visited a recruiter) tell us all what he was told by that recruiter.

So why do we jump on a recruiter for saying what many of us are thinking?
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabrrita View Post
So why do we jump on a recruiter for saying what many of us are thinking?
Great question, I'm trying to figure that out myself...

I had 40 Recruiters working for me and enlisted 400+ Recruits a year. I personally spoke to everyone of them before they went to MEPS and told them "I don't care what you have heard from your uncle that was in 20 years ago, I don't care what you heard from your buddy who joined last year, I don't care what you have read on the internet, I'm telling you right now...the job you pick at MEPS, is placed on your contract that you will sign, is the job you will be doing for your entire first enlistment. You can not get out of it at a later time. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?".

Very often the next thing I would hear is "my Recruiter said to take any job they offer me to get my foot in the door and we can work on getting it changed later". When I was done with the applicant I was on my way to put my foot in the ass of a Recruiter.

Most Recruiting Supervisors could care less and don't correct their Recruiters and allow these applicants to take jobs thinking they can change them at some later time. That is when we hear "my Recruiter lied to me" and we get guys like the OP that think it is the Recruits fault when the Recruit was just doing what they were told by their Recruiter.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paka View Post
Congress is forcing HUGE cuts on all branches of the military, so while a wonderful life and full of opportunity, you NEED to understand YOU are asking to join the military, they are NOT asking to join you. The requirements are SOLID, and if you can not meet them, you end up being sent home without having done your country or yourself any favors.
I missed this statement the first time and I'd like to add that that is very wrong also. I can assure you that EVERY Recruiter is calling kids, visiting them at high school, meeting them at the mall, etc. and attempting to set an appointment to interview the kid, SELL them and ask them to join the military.

I don't know what rock you've been living under and think that Recruiters just take names and fill out paperwork. They are salesmen, they are required to prospect for potential enlistments and they are required to SELL them on joining the military and SELL them on filling the job the service needs them to fill.

The military is most certainly asking them to join, the majority NEVER once asked to join the military. I put in thousands of Recruits in my career and had a handful that walked in my office all ready to go (asked to join). However, the other 98% of them I had to sell my ass off to convince them that the military was the right thing for them. Looking back on it, I'm sure the military wasn't the right thing for all of those thousands of kids I told that it was. It is always the "support" guys that think they are doing these kids some big favor by letting them be in the military and don't understand all the SELLING and reselling, ass kissing and hand holding that the Recruiter had to do to get that kid on the bus to ship.

Several of the ones I put in are no longer with us and were killed in service to our country. You know hard it is to look a parent in the eye after their son or daughter was killed overseas when you were the one that sat in their living room and told them how great the military was going to be, how they were going to get great job training, how they were going to get a college education and travel and see the world and what they actually got was KILLED?

After doing this the first two times I made it a point to be 100% honest with every applicant and parent I dealt with and made sure my Recruiters did the same.

Last edited by LBTRS; 02-01-2014 at 10:52 PM..
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:18 PM
 
48 posts, read 54,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
The military is most certainly asking them to join, the majority NEVER once asked to join the military. I put in thousands of Recruits in my career and had a handful that walked in my office all ready to go (asked to join).
Sorry to crash this AF party (as a prior Marine), but LBTRS is right. Take it from me....one of the 'handfull' who walked into my recruiter's office ready to rock back in 1985 wanting to kick ass, take names and travel the world.

And guess what.......even being one of those hard chargers......, my recruiter still lied to me. That is where parents who give a crap come in. Dad set the recruiter straight right in front of me. I still joined of course (with dad's signature), but they didn't get me for 6 years on the 'quality enlistment program' like the recruiter planned. They got me for four active instead.

I liked my 4+2, did well and have since wished I never got out, but the recruiter DID lie. Lucky for me dad was there.

Kids these days are extra stupid & lazy, recruiters are mostly liars and parents don't give a crap as long as the kid is out of their hair. That is how it really is.

However, as far as I am concerned- any recruiter who lies to a kid should be guilty of "conduct unbecoming". There is NO excuse for such a lack of integrity in something that is SUPPOSED TO BE FOUNDED ON INTEGRITY!

Now on the other side of the coin..........how bad could any job in the AF really be that a kid would just "have to" get out of it.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whynottellit View Post
Now on the other side of the coin..........how bad could any job in the AF really be that a kid would just "have to" get out of it.
Lol, very good point...

In the interest of full disclosure, I did 26 years and retired from the Navy so it's not an Air Force party.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Idaho
836 posts, read 1,308,186 times
Reputation: 1547
I may be the exception but my recruiter was completely honest with me and it helped have a winning attitude thru boot camp.

Hats off to all of you helping prospects, active duty and veterans!
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:25 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
3,182 posts, read 9,221,015 times
Reputation: 4716
As a recruiter, currently a recruiter, I have been told many times, "If your kid doesn't take this job, he won't get another one. He takes this one or I'll remember that every job drop from now on. Your kid is joining the Air Force. He/She is NOT JOINING A JOB. They are joining the Air Force!! Not a job! They will take what we give them, or they can find a job somewhere else. If they want to be an x-ray tech, they'd go be an x-ray tech. They are joining the Air Force. They are not joining x-ray tech university!" (substitute any job).

I've been told that if my kids won't take any job, I'm not allowed to send them to MEPS. If they refuse a job, I'd get in some much trouble (not officially, not in writing, but yes). For my supervisor, a condition of becoming a depper is the willingness to take what you are offered, to be willing to join the Air Force and meet the needs of the Air Force. To join the Air Force, not an AFSC, and to take what we need you to take. You're not doing us a favor by joining, we're doing you a favor by letting you join (not saying I feel this way, but this is the attitude of people I work for).

Recruiters don't work for the applicants, they work for the Air Force.

You CAN try to retrain later (Try/Later). That part is not a lie.

I've never lied. I've said, "If you don't take this job, I'm not sure if my boss will ever give you another." That is true. It is 100% true. PEOPLE, MY BOSS, controlled every kid's job. If a supervisor wants to leave someone in the dep forever, they can. They'll just document that the kid was unwilling to meet the needs of the Air Force, and was offered jobs he/she refused, and that will satisfy even a Congressional complaint. I had a girl turn town a job. She waited 14 MORE MONTHS while watching all her friends ship, and eventually decided to leave and join the Navy.

It's not a lie that you have a retraining window, and can TRY to retrain. It's a lie if a recruiter makes retraining sound like a sure thing.

You don't go to Microsoft, Boeing, or any other big company and apply for a job, get offered an entry level job, and tell them to "shove-it" I want to be a programer, when you aren't trained to be a programer. With the economy the way it is, many people take what jobs they are offered. If Company X offered you a great job, with great benefits, and great pay, and you said, "Nope, I don't want to work for you bad enough to take that job." Do you think that company would offer you another job? Nope. They'd count their loss and hope you find employment elsewhere. Why is the Air Force expected to be different?

I once saw a guy wait 18 months for a certain job because he turned down Crew Chief at his 3 month DEP point. I actually advised him to turn down the Crew Chief job because he wanted Special Forces and was qualified. We needed special forces. Special Forces where "shipping" in an average of 6 months. I can't prove why he waited THREE TIMES LONGER for a job than anyone else, but he did. I paid for that, barely making goal for months after advising him that, and being the only recruiter in my unit not to get a production award that year... can I prove it was retaliation? No.

In my experience, recruiters don't lie. But, they have to adhere to the rules and expectations of supervision. There is absolutely not rule or regulation that says we have to give applicants the job they want.

If we tell kids they can TRY to crosstrain, and they hear something else, then we can't help that.

Sometimes it comes down to two choices:
1. Do you want to be in the Air Force doing a job you don't want?
OR
2. Do you want to be a civilian doing the job you do want?
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