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Old 02-03-2014, 08:36 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
3,182 posts, read 9,221,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
I missed this statement the first time and I'd like to add that that is very wrong also. I can assure you that EVERY Recruiter is calling kids, visiting them at high school, meeting them at the mall, etc. and attempting to set an appointment to interview the kid, SELL them and ask them to join the military.

I don't know what rock you've been living under and think that Recruiters just take names and fill out paperwork. They are salesmen, they are required to prospect for potential enlistments and they are required to SELL them on joining the military and SELL them on filling the job the service needs them to fill.

The military is most certainly asking them to join, the majority NEVER once asked to join the military. I put in thousands of Recruits in my career and had a handful that walked in my office all ready to go (asked to join). However, the other 98% of them I had to sell my ass off to convince them that the military was the right thing for them. Looking back on it, I'm sure the military wasn't the right thing for all of those thousands of kids I told that it was. It is always the "support" guys that think they are doing these kids some big favor by letting them be in the military and don't understand all the SELLING and reselling, ass kissing and hand holding that the Recruiter had to do to get that kid on the bus to ship.

Several of the ones I put in are no longer with us and were killed in service to our country. You know hard it is to look a parent in the eye after their son or daughter was killed overseas when you were the one that sat in their living room and told them how great the military was going to be, how they were going to get great job training, how they were going to get a college education and travel and see the world and what they actually got was KILLED?

After doing this the first two times I made it a point to be 100% honest with every applicant and parent I dealt with and made sure my Recruiters did the same.
I actually disagree. As an enlisted recruiter TODAY, it's impossible to beat the applicants off with a stick. I have them coming out of my ears. I dread visiting high schools because I don't have the time to enter all the leads into my computer. I have seen days where I have 30+ phone messages, most of them desperate to talk to a recruiter, complaining that they've called 5 other recruiters and no one will call them back. Do you have any idea how long it takes to return 30 phone calls? 45 minutes just to LISTEN to the messages. People leave long messages, with their phone number at the end. And, you don't have 45 minutes, because you have walk-ins interrupting you, and your cell phone interrupting you, and your office phone ringing, and emails popping up, and more messages being left as you call them back, and the Korean war veteran who stops in to tell you a story for 17 minutes, and you have pee, and you have to eat, and you have to do 4 hours of security clearance paperwork, and you have to engage with your boss, and then maybe you can return a phone call that will take 10 minutes (each) and it's impossible.

You tell people that you can't send them to MEPS for weeks and weeks, because MEPS had to put LIMITS on how many people can physical each day because they were overwhelmed (current daily limits are in place at each MEPS, nationwide. In some MEPS, the Air Force can only send 1 or 2 people a day, and all recruiters share that allotment). Then you tell them you can't send them to MEPS because you reached your max DEP allotment. (Allowed to have only 3x your goal in your DEP). Once I have 9 people in my DEP, I can't take any more applicants. There are times when I have had people waiting months just to go to MEPS. Meanwhile, other new people are piling up, and I'm giving the Army recruiter stacks of names to call, hoping he'll steal someone off my plate.

What are we going to say to the person that says, "I'll only take a medical job" when we haven't seen a medical job come down the board in almost a year??? I'm not exaggerating. Most medical jobs are given to those going "OPEN" and often, medical jobs go to "golden" applicants- like a recruiter's kid, etc. Nothing illegal here at all... just facts. Yet daily, people come in only willing to take medical jobs, and having read on some online forum that they can just hold out and bully the recruiter into a medical job (recruiters have no actual say so, none, at all, zilch). Then, they think we're lying when we say we literally can't get them a medical job, because they read online that they can get one.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
I actually disagree. As an enlisted recruiter TODAY, it's impossible to beat the applicants off with a stick. I have them coming out of my ears. I dread visiting high schools because I don't have the time to enter all the leads into my computer. I have seen days where I have 30+ phone messages, most of them desperate to talk to a recruiter, complaining that they've called 5 other recruiters and no one will call them back. Do you have any idea how long it takes to return 30 phone calls? 45 minutes just to LISTEN to the messages. People leave long messages, with their phone number at the end. And, you don't have 45 minutes, because you have walk-ins interrupting you, and your cell phone interrupting you, and your office phone ringing, and emails popping up, and more messages being left as you call them back, and the Korean war veteran who stops in to tell you a story for 17 minutes, and you have pee, and you have to eat, and you have to do 4 hours of security clearance paperwork, and you have to engage with your boss, and then maybe you can return a phone call that will take 10 minutes (each) and it's impossible.

You tell people that you can't send them to MEPS for weeks and weeks, because MEPS had to put LIMITS on how many people can physical each day because they were overwhelmed (current daily limits are in place at each MEPS, nationwide. In some MEPS, the Air Force can only send 1 or 2 people a day, and all recruiters share that allotment). Then you tell them you can't send them to MEPS because you reached your max DEP allotment. (Allowed to have only 3x your goal in your DEP). Once I have 9 people in my DEP, I can't take any more applicants. There are times when I have had people waiting months just to go to MEPS. Meanwhile, other new people are piling up, and I'm giving the Army recruiter stacks of names to call, hoping he'll steal someone off my plate.

What are we going to say to the person that says, "I'll only take a medical job" when we haven't seen a medical job come down the board in almost a year??? I'm not exaggerating. Most medical jobs are given to those going "OPEN" and often, medical jobs go to "golden" applicants- like a recruiter's kid, etc. Nothing illegal here at all... just facts. Yet daily, people come in only willing to take medical jobs, and having read on some online forum that they can just hold out and bully the recruiter into a medical job (recruiters have no actual say so, none, at all, zilch). Then, they think we're lying when we say we literally can't get them a medical job, because they read online that they can get one.
You sound like a honest hard working recruiter, one I would have been proud to work with and lead. It also sounds like your Flight Chief is doing the right thing also.

However, you ever hear the term "first world problems"? It is akin to your description above and what you're describing is mostly an "Air Force Problem". Return 30 phone calls??? Try making 150 - 200 cold calls a day that takes 8-10 hours to accomplish (in between your other daily tasks like school visits, MEPS runs, etc.) and gets you out of the office between 2100-2200 after you've reported all your daily prospecting numbers to your supervisor. The other services actually have to work harder to find qualified applicants that are willing to serve long periods on underway on ships in the USN or overseas in combat operations in the USA and USMC. I recruited for 15 years (only recently retired) and at the most I can remember having three people I had to call back and as you know, the ones that call you are normally the ones that are not qualified anyway (at least for the USN, USA and USMC). We don't all get to sell that "quality of life" that you get to sell. How many times a day do you use "quality of life" to describe why they should serve in the Air Force over the other services? I've heard it from Air Force Recruiters thousands of times over the last 15 years. We don't get to do that, we have to convince a young kid that is is cool to live on a ship at sea for 9 months, sleep in a coffin, eat slop on the mess decks and come back in port and turn around and do it all over again six months later.

I know you're saying you disagree with me, however, the OP who is an Air Force bother-in-arms of yours also stated his recruits are reporting saying they were told by their recruiters "take this job now and you can reclass out of it in boot camp". You may not want to believe me or him but there are many recruiters out there that are not doing things the right way like you are. I worked with dozens of Air Force Recruiters over the last 15 years and known many that were by hook or by crook and would say or do anything to get them in. Of course it was worse when the economy wasn't in such bad shape and I have met many good ones like you.

Last edited by LBTRS; 02-03-2014 at 09:51 PM..
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:32 PM
 
28 posts, read 161,683 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
"Take it now and we'll get it changed before you ship", "Take it now and you can change it in boot camp", "Take it now and you can cross-train out of it", "Take this Security Forces Job now and you'll be doing criminal investigations as soon as you get out of tech school", "Take that job now and you'll have time to figure out what you really want to do and can switch later", etc.
From a Delayed Entry Program guy, this kind of stuff is definitely said. Basically any fit male at our last DEP meeting was told by the flight chief that we had to look into Parescue, because it's what the Air Force needs.

"Even if you fail out, you'll be reclassed into another job on the top of your list!"

Doesn't sound like a good idea to shove people who barely passed the fitness standards and don't truly want to be there into a job where people's lives depend on you. Sure fire way to add to the high washout rate. And, I would surmise the claim about being reclassed into a job you want is a false statement. We all get the needs of the Air Force, but man... setting people up for failure is a dishonest/terrible recruiting tactic if you ask me.


Also, to dmarie, thanks for the advice via PM way back. As aforementioned, I got a hold of one who got me into DEP within' a month.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Columbia SC
7,944 posts, read 6,706,083 times
Reputation: 10701
Skin head, Skin head, do not feel blue. My recruiter screwed me too.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2live&dieinLA View Post
From a Delayed Entry Program guy, this kind of stuff is definitely said. Basically any fit male at our last DEP meeting was told by the flight chief that we had to look into Parescue, because it's what the Air Force needs.

"Even if you fail out, you'll be reclassed into another job on the top of your list!"

Doesn't sound like a good idea to shove people who barely passed the fitness standards and don't truly want to be there into a job where people's lives depend on you. Sure fire way to add to the high washout rate. And, I would surmise the claim about being reclassed into a job you want is a false statement. We all get the needs of the Air Force, but man... setting people up for failure is a dishonest/terrible recruiting tactic if you ask me.


Also, to dmarie, thanks for the advice via PM way back. As aforementioned, I got a hold of one who got me into DEP within' a month.
Good to hear from someone in the delayed entry program and not just from those on the "other side" like I once was.

That statement above was close to being true had he stated "you'll be reclassed into another job on the top of THE AIR FORCES LIST" which is more than likely security forces or something of similar popularity.

I've had many of my applicants ultimately choose the Air Force over the Navy because they wanted a better "quality of life" as was promised by the Air Force Recruiter only to come back on leave and tell me that the quality of life is fine, however, they were reclassified into a job of the Air Force's choosing when they didn't complete the qualifications for the program they signed up for. Most ended up in security forces.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:29 PM
 
595 posts, read 2,031,579 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
As a recruiter, currently a recruiter, I have been told many times, "If your kid doesn't take this job, he won't get another one. He takes this one or I'll remember that every job drop from now on. Your kid is joining the Air Force. He/She is NOT JOINING A JOB. They are joining the Air Force!! Not a job! They will take what we give them, or they can find a job somewhere else. If they want to be an x-ray tech, they'd go be an x-ray tech. They are joining the Air Force. They are not joining x-ray tech university!" (substitute any job).

I've been told that if my kids won't take any job, I'm not allowed to send them to MEPS. If they refuse a job, I'd get in some much trouble (not officially, not in writing, but yes). For my supervisor, a condition of becoming a depper is the willingness to take what you are offered, to be willing to join the Air Force and meet the needs of the Air Force. To join the Air Force, not an AFSC, and to take what we need you to take. You're not doing us a favor by joining, we're doing you a favor by letting you join (not saying I feel this way, but this is the attitude of people I work for).

Recruiters don't work for the applicants, they work for the Air Force.

You CAN try to retrain later (Try/Later). That part is not a lie.
True story: When I marched my cute little 20 year old butt into the AF recruiter's office back in 1997 that was exactly what he said to me when I asked what he could do for me.

I went in Open General and still was on DEP for 6 months. I just wanted to be in the AF. I really didn't care all that much what I did.

Thing's in the AF haven't changed all that much. Even with the economy tanking.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Hard aground in the Sonoran Desert
4,549 posts, read 8,001,354 times
Reputation: 6273
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
I've been told that if my kids won't take any job, I'm not allowed to send them to MEPS. If they refuse a job, I'd get in some much trouble (not officially, not in writing, but yes). For my supervisor, a condition of becoming a depper is the willingness to take what you are offered, to be willing to join the Air Force and meet the needs of the Air Force. To join the Air Force, not an AFSC, and to take what we need you to take. You're not doing us a favor by joining, we're doing you a favor by letting you join (not saying I feel this way, but this is the attitude of people I work for).
This is where the problem lies and you're not seeing it from the 5000 foot level...most "people recruiters work for" feel this way and most recruiters don't actually feel this way. Most Recruiting Supervisors think they are doing the kid a favor by letting them join and most Recruiters (who are actually beating the streets and pounding the phones and have the relationship with the kid) feel the kid is doing them a favor by joining or at least they need to give the kid an incentive to join. This is what causes the problem I describe. EVERYONE but the Recruiter is insisting that the kid take anything they are offered and most recruiters feel some obligation to at least attempt to meet some of the kids needs/wants/desires so that is why they say "take it now" as this part makes their boss happy and "you can reclass later" as that meets the kids needs and puts the reality (they really can't reclass later) off to a later date when the kid is long gone.

I insisted that my applicants "took what they were offered", however, I did it while telling them that is the job they were stuck with and there was no getting out of it until much later in their career.

Again, not all recruiters are bad apples but it's a very tough job and they are under a lot of stress and often times this leads to half truths and omissions.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:51 PM
 
36 posts, read 200,028 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
Most medical jobs are given to those going "OPEN" and often, medical jobs go to "golden" applicants- like a recruiter's kid, etc. Nothing illegal here at all... just facts.
Is this to be expected for civilian officer applicants, as well? Merely curious.

I'm interested in the AF reserve as a civilian, but given that all FY14 boards have been canceled, I cannot help but wonder what are the realistic chances of a civilian outsider with no AF connections.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:35 PM
 
1,405 posts, read 2,147,937 times
Reputation: 1418
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBTRS View Post
Huh, what is it that you feel is "simple bull"? I spent 26 years on active duty and the last 15 were in Recruiting (I retired recently). What is your "claim" that makes you more knowledgeable on the subject?

I dealt with it EVERY day for 15 years. The services need to fill certain jobs that are not popular (and LOTS of them) so they offer them up to applicants and release the fewer popular jobs slowly. Applicants who are only offered the crappy jobs have to be sold all kinds of BS as to why they should take that job now and told they will be able to do something about it at a later date.

"Take it now and we'll get it changed before you ship", "Take it now and you can change it in boot camp", "Take it now and you can cross-train out of it", "Take this Security Forces Job now and you'll be doing criminal investigations as soon as you get out of tech school", "Take that job now and you'll have time to figure out what you really want to do and can switch later", etc.

Recruiters are put under extreme pressure to meet recruiting goals and those goals include filling the crappy jobs needed by each service. If there isn't someone in the supervisory chain of command to nip things like this in the bud the omissions and half truths from Recruiters begin to get much larger.

My post wasn't indicating that all Recruiters are doing this, as I stated, this problem is caused by Recruiters not giving applicants the real story. In my 15 years I can't remember applicants wanting to switch jobs when they got the job they wanted, however, I had thousands want to switch their jobs that were sold by my Recruiters on doing something they didn't actually want to do.

I really don't understand why you feel this is crap that helps no one...It was directed to help the OP who didn't seem to understand why he finds himself in this situation and seemed to be blaming the Recruits for his and their frustrations when it is caused by the way Recruiters are pushed to meet their goals.

Edited to add: Not to mention, my information helps recruits understand that they are the only one looking out for THEIR best interest during the recruiting process. The Recruiter is looking out for his and the services best interest as that is what he or she gets paid to do. While some recruiters are better than others, they all get paid to recruit to the needs of the service and that often forces recruiters to omit or distort the truth to get applicants to agree to the job being offered.
I'm glad you told the truth.

My recruiter lied through his teeth. I ended up in a bad situation because of him but was able to work my way out of it and make it work. My peers weren't so lucky.

My Officer Recruiter was a different problem. The guy was the laziest human being I ever met. He was ROAD and I would have to follow the deadlines and make sure my package was submitted by doing it myself.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:44 PM
 
1,405 posts, read 2,147,937 times
Reputation: 1418
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
As a recruiter, currently a recruiter, I have been told many times, "If your kid doesn't take this job, he won't get another one. He takes this one or I'll remember that every job drop from now on. Your kid is joining the Air Force. He/She is NOT JOINING A JOB. They are joining the Air Force!! Not a job! They will take what we give them, or they can find a job somewhere else. If they want to be an x-ray tech, they'd go be an x-ray tech. They are joining the Air Force. They are not joining x-ray tech university!" (substitute any job).

I've been told that if my kids won't take any job, I'm not allowed to send them to MEPS. If they refuse a job, I'd get in some much trouble (not officially, not in writing, but yes). For my supervisor, a condition of becoming a depper is the willingness to take what you are offered, to be willing to join the Air Force and meet the needs of the Air Force. To join the Air Force, not an AFSC, and to take what we need you to take. You're not doing us a favor by joining, we're doing you a favor by letting you join (not saying I feel this way, but this is the attitude of people I work for).

Recruiters don't work for the applicants, they work for the Air Force.

You CAN try to retrain later (Try/Later). That part is not a lie.

I've never lied. I've said, "If you don't take this job, I'm not sure if my boss will ever give you another." That is true. It is 100% true. PEOPLE, MY BOSS, controlled every kid's job. If a supervisor wants to leave someone in the dep forever, they can. They'll just document that the kid was unwilling to meet the needs of the Air Force, and was offered jobs he/she refused, and that will satisfy even a Congressional complaint. I had a girl turn town a job. She waited 14 MORE MONTHS while watching all her friends ship, and eventually decided to leave and join the Navy.

It's not a lie that you have a retraining window, and can TRY to retrain. It's a lie if a recruiter makes retraining sound like a sure thing.

You don't go to Microsoft, Boeing, or any other big company and apply for a job, get offered an entry level job, and tell them to "shove-it" I want to be a programer, when you aren't trained to be a programer. With the economy the way it is, many people take what jobs they are offered. If Company X offered you a great job, with great benefits, and great pay, and you said, "Nope, I don't want to work for you bad enough to take that job." Do you think that company would offer you another job? Nope. They'd count their loss and hope you find employment elsewhere. Why is the Air Force expected to be different?
I'm sorry. But that is terrible recruiter logic. You don't just apply to a company like Microsoft and hope they give you something. You apply for jobs you're qualified for and meet their requirements. You don't just apply randomly and hope you'll get something.

The military is different because you're signing YOUR LIFE away in return for job training in a field you're qualified for. Saying that you should take what's offered is beyond stupid.
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