Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I do not think the quality and character is any worse now than years ago. I think the military is getting overall nit picky and enforcement obsessive as is society in general. Plus, as a person gets older and more advanced, many things younger people do seem rather poor in character and quality; it is just the older and more experienced person has outgrown and risen out of that circle years ago they were actually part of.
The military always has changing standards, that is why I cringe every time someone refers to military standards; it changes with the needs, thus hardly a stationary standard to make a comparison to, they cannot even keep a standard uniform for long.
Gun decking has been around for as long as there have been logs. Every command I was ever with someone has been caught gun decking, security departments being the worse about it. I have seen punishment ranging from a counseling chit, to being "fired" from the position, never a mast though.
I agree. It's just interesting to hear other services aren't all that different.
15 years ago I rarely had young kids that their weight was an issue, today we turn away a large percentage of the kids we talk to because they are outside the weight limits. More kids today have police issues that can't be worked with than they did years ago. Years ago I could work with almost any police involvement, not so today. Lots more kids today with minor in consumption or possession of alcohol/paraphernalia/drug tickets than there was years ago.
This I totally agree with, but that goes along with a lack of character and laziness. Higher standards are a good thing.
It's not really that hard to not do drugs and get ARIs/DUIs.. It really isn't.
Now we have smarter and more qualified kids we're trying to enlist who have legitimate opportunities to go to college or get entry level jobs in the civilian sector and we're only offering them the chance to be a cook or some other job that no one wants to be.
Smarter and more qualified?In what way?They can score higher on the ASVAB?When it comes to responsibility, integrity, skill, and initiative, these kids are rotten compared to the kids in y tech school class all who turned out to be fast burners and great troops. It almost seems like good troops and bad troops come in cycles.
Most of these kids couldn't install 6 different sized bolts in an aircraft wing in under an hour. They are mechanically retarded.
They wouldn't be at your desk if they had such great prospects. These kids are desperate but still picky, they don't really want to enlist, they don't really care about serving their country ,but they really have no other choice. Entry level jobs in the Private sector pay very poorly compared to the military.
Last I heard they only thing recruiters were gunning for was special forces, chronically undermanned maintenance career fields and SPs.
All while we turn away the kids that can't qualify for college or entry level jobs in the civilian sector which in the past we would have scooped up and they would have filled all the jobs that no one else wants.
Having recruited for the last 15 years I can tell you it was much easier to Recruit 15 years ago then it is today.
If they don't qualify for entry level jobs or college in the civilian world, why would we want them touching $230 million aircraft? Community colleges and places like ITT, U of Phx, literally take anyone that wants an education and they do it on the taxpayers dime. They may need remedial classes but they still get accepted. The AF needs people who will have pride in what they do. People who like to accomplish and be a part of something. All these weird little spineless introverts the AF was getting when I left may be book smart, but they have a horrible lack of work ethic and mechanical skills. They have zero loyalty to the AF and zero ability to solve problems. They want to do as little work as possible while drawing a paycheck for the next 4 years so they can get their 911 and punch out. Luckily, some old school NCOs are wise to the game and do everything in their power to weed out these little worms. A lot of them would feign worthlessness so they could get another job or be able to do snack bar or debrief. When that didn't work they would try to claim they were injured, and when that didn't work they just stopped working or would visit mental health and pretend to be crazy so they didn't have to work.
I will admit my perspective is limited to Aircraft Maintenance, perhaps things are better outside of maintenance.
While I agree with most of what you say I do have to point out that it is easier to motivate someone that got a 31 on their ASVAB and KNOWS the military was their only option, to be a cook, a boatswains mate, security forces (or other job no one wants) than it is to motivate someone that got a 99 on the ASVAB and is a cook or boatswains mate that thinks the job is beneath them and thinks they have many other options in life (even if they actually do not). In most cases, I experienced better luck with a "knuckle dragger" doing the grunt work than I did some kid with a high asvab that thinks he got screwed.
Also, the laziness you're describing isn't isolated to just the kids coming in the service today. I recently attended a graduate program on an Air Force Base which had mostly retired Air Force personnel in my classes. I was shocked by the level of people I experienced in those classes and never heard so many military folks talk about how they found ways to get easy assignments where they didn't have to lead people. Seems most of them thought leading airmen was more of a hassle then it was worth and many of them said they took the career path that kept them from being in charge of people. This is foreign to me as I never experienced anything like this in my 26 years in the Navy as most people I worked with were fighting to get advanced and lead Sailors.
I actually chose a different school to finish my MBA because I was so disappointed in the laziness and caliber of the people I was interacting with in the classes on base. Not all of them were this way but it sure seemed to be the majority.
It really soured me to the Air Force and I know I shouldn't stereotype the entire Air Force based off of this experience and I've worked with some great Air Force personnel in the past. It is hard to overlook though and does illustrate that laziness isn't just a trait of the Millennials.
But that is the distinction. You are applying to JOIN THE AIR FORCE. You are not applying for a specific job. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a cop. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a firefighter. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a crew chief. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a lab tech. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not an aerial gunner. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a supply tech. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a job.
No where in the entire process does any form say anything about a specific job. You take an OATH BEFORE you find out what your job will be. Why? Because you are joining the Air Force, not a job. You stand before the Flag, you raise your right hand, and you swear to your GOD that you will serve. You make the commitment... to the Air Force, and only to the Air Force. You don't swear to be a mental health tech. You don't swear to be paralegal. You swear to be an Airman. Nothing else. It is never presented any other way.
Here's the best response I've heard to this argument... posted on another forum a while back.
"The thing I don't get about focusing so much on "Airman before Job" is that it sounds like a cheap copy of "Every Marine a rifleman," which is a far more realistic and believable slogan. I don't think anyone in here has any illusions that service in the military means you won't be doing all sorts of different things that don't involve your assigned job. However, the point of the Marine's call to arms is that if it came to it, every Marine could throw down their normal duties and become an improvised infantry squad. Probably not as effective as an actual infantry squad, but the Marines do seem to invest enough time at the range and at the PT field to make it happen. It's what unites them as Marines.
What unites us as Airman? We have a shallow and widely mocked creed, sketchy at best PT program, and a mish-mash of traditions that aren't universally accepted and/or practiced AF-wide. That's not to diminish our history, as there are certainly extremely worthwhile traditions that are passed down in different career fields and bases. The TACP movie that Donnie posted of the trainees performing the memorial pushups for the KIA was one of the most meaningful things I've seen in my brief 3.5 years in. Many of the bases I have been at have excellent POW/MIA remembrance programs.
With that said, if the sh*t hit the fan and we were pushed to basics, what would we have besides our jobs to battle the enemy? We could march great in formation, have some rocking sexy belts, and put on some killer bake sales, but I don't think there is a single military skill we possess service wide that is ingrained into us and tied to our long and rather awe-inspiring history. Every Airman a maintainer? Every Airman a pilot? Every Airman an aircrew member? When is the last time you saw Airmen that really knew the watershed moments of Air Force history throughout the past six decades? Once again I'm going to go to an example from a TACP(Maybe they are on to something here?), when xxx talked about making his troops research and give presentations on incidents like Lima Site 85. That's how tradition and history are ingrained. I don't think I've ever seen that done anywhere else in Big Blue.
I think there are a bunch of different cultures within career fields and groups of career fields that each have their own interpretation of what an "Airman" is and have traditions and basics related to their field. The maintainer culture, the aircrew culture, the actual warrior culture(within the combat arms AFSC'S), and then a more generic and dispersed Big Blue culture which I find far more sterile and corporate. What are the common skills you would identify as distinctly "Air Force"? I'm not talking about our core values, I'm talking about basic skills that every Airmen knows and would be able to be used en masse without their assigned jobs.
I hope no one takes this as me crapping on Airmen in general, because I respect the hell out of everyone in here who has served their time, deployed, and worked their ass off while wearing the USAF uniform(Hey, I'm one too!) I'm just trying to say I don't think we are quite so wonderfully united as "Airmen" when compared to the services from which the idea of Airman > job came from. Honestly I do wish we were more "warrior" oriented but I don't think that's something you can put into an AFI and write great speeches about."
I believe the whole job process needs revamping. Eliminate the "open" areas AND "guaranteed" jobs all together. The "open" aptitudes are WAY too broad that's it's a crapshoot what you might get. "Guaranteed" jobs besides PJ, TACP, CCT, Linguist, and all the other hard to fill jobs are hard to come by now-a-days without waiting years and years.
Why don't they have a 1A aptitude for those who want to be aircrew? Why not a 2A aptitude area for those who want to do maintenance? Why not a 4 aptitude area for those who want to be medical? Why not a 1N aptitude for those who want to do intel?
That way ^^^, EVERYONE wins! The aptitudes would be way more specific than the "open" categories they have now, but more general than the "guaranteed" jobs.
I recently retired and recruited in today's recruiting "situation". Recruiting isn't any easier today than it was 15 years ago, matter of fact it is harder. Recruiters today have to deal with greatly increased qualification standards as compared to what we dealt with years ago. 15 years ago I could put in anyone with a 31 on the ASVAB, GED's, drug usage, police involvement, medical issues, weight issues, etc. that Recruiters can't touch today. Studies presented to Congress say that less than 25 percent of today's youth can meet the qualifications to get into the military. 15 years ago I rarely had young kids that their weight was an issue, today we turn away a large percentage of the kids we talk to because they are outside the weight limits. More kids today have police issues that can't be worked with than they did years ago. Years ago I could work with almost any police involvement, not so today. Lots more kids today with minor in consumption or possession of alcohol/paraphernalia/drug tickets than there was years ago.
Now we have smarter and more qualified kids we're trying to enlist who have legitimate opportunities to go to college or get entry level jobs in the civilian sector and we're only offering them the chance to be a cook or some other job that no one wants to be. All while we turn away the kids that can't qualify for college or entry level jobs in the civilian sector which in the past we would have scooped up and they would have filled all the jobs that no one else wants.
Having recruited for the last 15 years I can tell you it was much easier to Recruit 15 years ago then it is today.
Don't you think these numbers jump around based on the state of the economy and the U.S.' involvement in conflicts though? I know the mid 2000s at the height of the Iraq war the recruiting standards were pretty low. Now, with the economy in the pisser, college costing an arm and a leg, and the war in Afghanistan coming to a close, there's a bunch joining for the steady paycheck, civilian marketability, and GI Bill. Do you think the threat of another serious war and a turnaround in the economy will lower the recruiting standards again in the future?
But that is the distinction. You are applying to JOIN THE AIR FORCE. You are not applying for a specific job. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a cop. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a firefighter. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a crew chief. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a lab tech. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not an aerial gunner. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a supply tech. You are applying to be an AIRMAN, not a job.
No where in the entire process does any form say anything about a specific job. You take an OATH BEFORE you find out what your job will be. Why? Because you are joining the Air Force, not a job. You stand before the Flag, you raise your right hand, and you swear to your GOD that you will serve. You make the commitment... to the Air Force, and only to the Air Force. You don't swear to be a mental health tech. You don't swear to be paralegal. You swear to be an Airman. Nothing else. It is never presented any other way.
I know a few people who joined the USAF with guaranteed jobs, things have changed?
I know in the Navy the job is in the contract, something has to happen like restructuring, not passing the clearance process, misconduct, etc for a person not to go to their job.
I took the oath after I signed all the papers that included my job. I would not have ever signed anything without my job being in writing.
SOME people get their jobs in writing, but they usually don't get their first choice in writing.
I guess different than the Navy where it is in writing from day one, no second or third choices at all; a person signs up to be an ET (electronics technicaian) then that is what they are.
Now, what specific NEC (Navy enlisted code) they are they possibly have no choice, for example, the person signs up to be an ET submarines, but can end up with one of four NEC's, communications trident or fast boat, or navigation trident or fast boat; a person did not know until they were done with their core electronics school.
It has always depended on 'Needs of the Service' and how big the applicant pool is at the time. Back when I went in some people went guaranteed job some went 'open Electronics' or 'Open Mechanical' What they didn't always tell you is that some jobs like BB stacker (weapons load crew) could fall under Mechanical one month and electronics the next if they didn't have enough people in the pipeline. The best thing you could always do was listen closely when your options were being explained and make sure you knew what the choices actually meant and that the definitions could change withut notice.
It doesn't sound like things have actually changed that much since I went in in the Mid 70s except that the military has much more respect in the civilian community than it did then.
I would say 50% of people go in without a job in writing. That is an estimate, but it is NOT a low number of people. Some jobs are ONLY given out that way (given during basic, never given in writing). I don't know why the Air Force does it like that, but I think it has something to do with the fact that ADDITIONAL medical and mental screenings are done DURING basic training, so we can't really know who the best fit is for those jobs until they are in basic training.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
