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Old 03-17-2017, 10:01 AM
 
3,060 posts, read 902,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
I find it very hard to believe Air Force boot camp and Marine boot camp are........."all the same thing "..


to elaborate........drafted into the Navy in October of 65 and at boot camp in San Diego.


One day in November, the Santa Anna hot winds pushed the temps into mid 90's and all physical activity was cancelled for the day. We were told to review our notes and study instead.


Our barracks was close to the Marine Corps facility.


While we were excused from physical activities for the day we could see/hear the Marines out in full gear running and calling cadence.


......."all the same thing "......

NO WAY !

 
Old 03-17-2017, 01:28 PM
 
13,289 posts, read 6,467,976 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterseat View Post
I think they're all too easy. I think that's why so many troops are cracking in combat. Make 'em crack in basic and keep the weak ones off the battlefield. But anyway, I think the AF TIs try to be tough and don't really understand the purpose of being tough. In the Corps, the DIs were rebuilding men into Marines and, if Marines were ever captured, they could survive and possibly escape. That's the level of intensity the Marines went through. But now the DIs can't even let the brim of their hat touch the recruit, which used to be a big intimidating technique. Cuz ya better not flinch!

Well, if an airman not in a combat specialty gets captured, the situation has gone really, truly sideways. Those in combat specialties get SERE.

Quote:
I think that's why the AF has problems with new troops having attitudes. There's no real purpose to the intimidation. And they know it. IMO
The most important thing the military does in basic training is to indoctrinate and re-socialize the average indolent, self-indulgent, self-centered American kid into someone with a devotion to corps, a focus on mission, an ethic of obedience to command, and the will to prevail.


Besides that, they need to teach recruits how to closely follow explicit instructions, because that's another thing young Americans generally don't know how to do...even when they're trying.


Intimidation as a tactic is only needed for hardheads bordering on stupid (if they're actually stupid, there's no fixing that--but other services will try). The Air Force normally just boots out hardheads and stupids as soon as they are discovered.


As mentioned, the hardheads, stupids, and truly incompetents just disappear.


We had quirky exercises in basic that didn't make sense to me until long afterward. Like keeping our footwear "grounded" at all times. And keeping a roster in our pockets at all times with a list of all the money on us at the moment (including serial numbers of paper currency). I didn't understand the reason for that until I became a unit security manager.
 
Old 03-18-2017, 07:07 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
2,238 posts, read 1,962,557 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by baxendale View Post
When I went through Marine Corps boot camp in 1970 I recall one exercise when we learned how to administer the choke hold. We paired up and choked each other out until unconsciousness. It was quite the sight to see when they came to, snot running out of their noses and legs shaking uncontrollably. I didn't know the other branches of the service did the same thing.



I went thru Marine Corps boot camp in 1966 and remember the situation somewhat differently. The DI's would get mad at someone and they would put them in a choke hold and hold it until just before the recruit passed out and then let go. I can also recall at the rifle range if the instructor wasn't satisfied with your marksmanship you were required to put your finger in the rifle breech while he slammed home the bolt on said finger. Then there was the punishment of shaving with lather and a razor with a bucket over your head. Old Corps.
 
Old 03-18-2017, 07:11 PM
 
3,060 posts, read 902,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
I went thru Marine Corps boot camp in 1966 and remember the situation somewhat differently. The DI's would get mad at someone and they would put them in a choke hold and hold it until just before the recruit passed out and then let go. I can also recall at the rifle range if the instructor wasn't satisfied with your marksmanship you were required to put your finger in the rifle breech while he slammed home the bolt on said finger. Then there was the punishment of shaving with lather and a razor with a bucket over your head. Old Corps.


They must have done that in Air Force boot camp also if posters proclaim there is no difference between boot camps.................SARC
 
Old 03-18-2017, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
2,027 posts, read 1,546,820 times
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"Too easy" for what?

I was an Air Force intelligence analyst and never once fired a weapon in combat, yet I have no doubt I killed or helped kill enemy combatants. A friend is an Air Force pilot who went through the same BMT and later went through SERE training.

Different training for different jobs/missions.

Modern warfare is mostly fought by aircraft (often unmanned), and in cyberspace.

I have a lot of respect for Marines, but I think they will probably be the option of last-resort in the future, and that's a good thing. A UAV can be piloted from 4,000 miles away and doesn't put any American lives at risk. It can also take out 50 enemy combatants with one shot.

When was the last time the U.S. military had to "take that hill?"
 
Old 03-19-2017, 12:32 AM
 
1,467 posts, read 263,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox Harrington View Post
"Too easy" for what?

I was an Air Force intelligence analyst and never once fired a weapon in combat, yet I have no doubt I killed or helped kill enemy combatants. A friend is an Air Force pilot who went through the same BMT and later went through SERE training.

Different training for different jobs/missions.

Modern warfare is mostly fought by aircraft (often unmanned), and in cyberspace.

I have a lot of respect for Marines, but I think they will probably be the option of last-resort in the future, and that's a good thing. A UAV can be piloted from 4,000 miles away and doesn't put any American lives at risk. It can also take out 50 enemy combatants with one shot.

When was the last time the U.S. military had to "take that hill?"
Ground troops take cities and hills. In the recent Iraq war Marines with help from the Army took the City of Fulujah (spelling?) in what I suspect will be studied for centuries in military history right up their with what was it
.. Stalingrad. Marines took the city battling building to building, floor to floor, room to room.




That said... "The hardest thing" can be overrated to some extent. It's not overrated in terms of the individual's accomplishment to survive or excecl in that challenge of course, the phase or school one must pass through.

But it can be overated in terms of perceptions of "need." You don't need to go the Ranger school, pass through Marine boot camp, become a member of the British SAS to learn how to shoot someone in the chest or cut their throat. And rebel outfits be they called terrorists or freedom fighters can be effective in fighting regular military organizations with tough boot camps.

As for post number 1: I think the objective and cultural objectives of each military branch might be considered. I was in the Marines but the US Marines want brainwashed people that will run very obdiently towards gun fire. Like Joe Pesci's character in the movie Casino when he threatens the Irish business guy about returning his money back, Joe Pesci's tells the guy that he (Joe) is "stupid." He's stupid enough to crack the guy's head open and go to prison for it he's telling him. So, the mafia needed "stupid" men that risk their own safety and prosperity, throwing all to the wind. Likewise, the US Marine Corps likes stupid men. They take pride in the deragatory term "jarhead."

But so far as I can tell from video documentary, in terms of yelling at recruits, the US Air Force is faaaaaaar tougher than the boot camp of the British Royal Marines. They're all nice and soft spoken, concerned and caring for the recruits emotional and mental state. Some of those dudes would not have survived the black North Side of Milwaukee. But yet... the British Royal Marines seem to still make up a pretty effective fighting force.
 
Old 03-19-2017, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Colorado
118 posts, read 38,093 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjd1 View Post
I know it ain't the Marines or even the Army but I've heard people describe Air Force BMT as being a sort of summer camp. That the Air Force drill instructors can't curse and have to walk on egg shells around recruits in order to avoid being disciplined. Also BEAST is known to not be that hard.

So what's the deal with Air Force BMT?
The OP's post is from Feb 2015, curious to know how he's doing, if he went??
My son went to BMT in Oct 2014, his BEAST week was the week of Thanksgiving, so he only did 3 days instead of the 5 days. The OP is right, the TI's have to walk on egg shells, no intimidation or touching.
 
Old 03-19-2017, 11:07 AM
 
3,060 posts, read 902,572 times
Reputation: 5587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox Harrington View Post
"Too easy" for what?

I was an Air Force intelligence analyst and never once fired a weapon in combat, yet I have no doubt I killed or helped kill enemy combatants. A friend is an Air Force pilot who went through the same BMT and later went through SERE training.

Different training for different jobs/missions.

Modern warfare is mostly fought by aircraft (often unmanned), and in cyberspace.

I have a lot of respect for Marines, but I think they will probably be the option of last-resort in the future, and that's a good thing. A UAV can be piloted from 4,000 miles away and doesn't put any American lives at risk. It can also take out 50 enemy combatants with one shot.

When was the last time the U.S. military had to "take that hill?"

I've been reading that all my life ( and I'm 71) about how the infantry ground soldier is "obsolete"


Gulf War I was all about " shock and awe" yet it took ground troops going door to door in the next war ( Iraqi War)


When the Army shuts down its infantry schools I might start to believe you.
 
Old 03-19-2017, 02:59 PM
 
13,289 posts, read 6,467,976 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
I've been reading that all my life ( and I'm 71) about how the infantry ground soldier is "obsolete"


Gulf War I was all about " shock and awe" yet it took ground troops going door to door in the next war ( Iraqi War)


When the Army shuts down its infantry schools I might start to believe you.
Someone has said, "You haven't won the war until you can stand a 19-year-old with rifle on their ground unopposed."
 
Old 03-19-2017, 04:41 PM
Status: "Not into the whole brevity thing" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: 149,597,870,700 meters from the Sun
9,915 posts, read 5,043,798 times
Reputation: 34376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox Harrington View Post
"Too easy" for what?

I was an Air Force intelligence analyst and never once fired a weapon in combat, yet I have no doubt I killed or helped kill enemy combatants. A friend is an Air Force pilot who went through the same BMT and later went through SERE training.

Different training for different jobs/missions.

Modern warfare is mostly fought by aircraft (often unmanned), and in cyberspace.

I have a lot of respect for Marines, but I think they will probably be the option of last-resort in the future, and that's a good thing. A UAV can be piloted from 4,000 miles away and doesn't put any American lives at risk. It can also take out 50 enemy combatants with one shot.

When was the last time the U.S. military had to "take that hill?"
That's precisely it.

USAF BMT is mission-oriented. The fact that it was tougher when some poster enlisted in 1965 is completely and utterly irrelevant. The fact that some people think it should be tougher because they dislike society in 2017 is irrelevant. The fact that some people just can't understand that times change and that the needs of the military change with them is irrelevant.

All that matters is that the Air Force is taking recruits and efficiently creating USAF personnel. Period.
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