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The article also mentions not bothering to report a TIC because if they report it then they have to submit a story board via Powerpoint (often within X hours of RTB). Such requirements cause overworked guys returning from a mission to either not report RTB immediately (since that starts the clock on submitting written reports) or not radioing in a TIC in the first place.
Then of course you have all the mandatory SHARPS, EO, IA, etc training where everyone skips to the test at the end because if you actually sat through it all you'd never get your actual job done. Not to mention not every section has 1 workstation per person, so there's a line waiting to knock out the mandatory check the block and 1SG is calling the NCOIC asking why only 50% of the section is done yet ...
The article also mentions not bothering to report a TIC because if they report it then they have to submit a story board via Powerpoint (often within X hours of RTB). Such requirements cause overworked guys returning from a mission to either not report RTB immediately (since that starts the clock on submitting written reports) or not radioing in a TIC in the first place.
Then of course you have all the mandatory SHARPS, EO, IA, etc training where everyone skips to the test at the end because if you actually sat through it all you'd never get your actual job done. Not to mention not every section has 1 workstation per person, so there's a line waiting to knock out the mandatory check the block and 1SG is calling the NCOIC asking why only 50% of the section is done yet ...
Spoken like someone who is very familiar with today's military.
My thought is this. I wonder if this is more due to the fact that majority of officers have no real world experience except college and it is tough to really consider that a real world experience.
No... Not really. Not in my experience. And not based on the study... Many/most/some people enter the military with very little "real world experience". I always considered the military a fast paced school of life in which you either grabbed the knowledge and experience from others, or sadly, you did not.
Here is the actual Report, from the horses mouth, from the Army War College. I found the real report more informative than the article. Even a few Sergeant's were descibed and OER's and EER's were mentioned.
Quote:
Strategic Studies Institute
and
U.S. Army War College Press
LYING TO OURSELVES:
DISHONESTY IN THE ARMY PROFESSION
Leonard Wong
Stephen J. Gerras
February 2015
Type: Monograph
53 Pages
Download Format: PDF
Cost: Free
"While it has been fairly well established that the Army is quick to pass down requirements to individuals and units regardless of their ability to actually comply with the totality of the requirements, there has been very little discussion about how the Army culture has accommodated the deluge of demands on the force. This study found that many Army officers, after repeated exposure to the overwhelming demands and the associated need to put their honor on the line to verify compliance, have become ethically numb."
"Another common (and innocuous) form of deceit in the U.S. Army officer corps concerns the evaluation reporting system. The dishonesty occurs not in the actual prose of the Officer Evaluation Report (OER)/NCO Evaluation Report (NCOER) (although an analysis of the over-the-top hyperbole in evaluations would make an interesting study), but rather with the associated OER/NCOER Support Form."
I haven't read this repot yet, but I will. The Army is indeed quick to pass down requirements that are impossible to comply with. Individually, each requirement seems doable, but when taken in totality, it's impossible to do everything and be everywhere at once. You can't say that out loud, but that's the truth. So, you pretend you're playing baseball... if you aren't cheating, you aren't competing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM
No... Not really. Not in my experience. And not based on the study... Many/most/some people enter the military with very little "real world experience". I always considered the military a fast paced school of life in which you either grabbed the knowledge and experience from others, or sadly, you did not.
Here is the actual Report, from the horses mouth, from the Army War College. I found the real report more informative than the article. Even a few Sergeant's were descibed and OER's and EER's were mentioned.
Type: Monograph
53 Pages
Download Format: PDF
Cost: Free
"While it has been fairly well established that the Army is quick to pass down requirements to individuals and units regardless of their ability to actually comply with the totality of the requirements, there has been very little discussion about how the Army culture has accommodated the deluge of demands on the force. This study found that many Army officers, after repeated exposure to the overwhelming demands and the associated need to put their honor on the line to verify compliance, have become ethically numb."
"Another common (and innocuous) form of deceit in the U.S. Army officer corps concerns the evaluation reporting system. The dishonesty occurs not in the actual prose of the Officer Evaluation Report (OER)/NCO Evaluation Report (NCOER) (although an analysis of the over-the-top hyperbole in evaluations would make an interesting study), but rather with the associated OER/NCOER Support Form."
No different than the Air Force. The promotion system is the best example. The only options when writing a office eval is either "this guy is the mostest bestest walks on water, saves the world second lieutenant ever" or anything less than that is "totally worthless piece of whale slime." The enlisted system is only slightly better. In any organization where 100% perfect is not good enough and there is an ever increasing amount of garbage taskings from above pencil whipping is the only way they can be met.
Because we wish to hold them to a higher standard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GER308
Humans lie often, for all sorts of reasons. They also often don't agree on what the "truth" is either. Why should military officers be different.
We're just now finding out with all the cell phone cameras out there that police engage in perjury like it was an Olympic Event. When I took my poly sci. in the USA (starting at age 8?) the standard we expect from those that serve is a concern for what our society stands for.
I.E. my friends can sell me out, employers can screw me, the wife can run off with the pool boy, but when that robe, uniform or even suit goes on you would hope back in the mind there's a flag waving somewhere.
EVERYBODY lies, even if only "little white lies"....
Especially to get what they want, or to "protect someone".
Sometimes, I think I'd rather be lied to than be told the truth, as much as I am all for truthfullness and honesty. At least with a lie, I might not know what I am missing sometimes.
My thought is this. I wonder if this is more due to the fact that majority of officers have no real world experience except college and it is tough to really consider that a real world experience. They are then thrusted through officer training and then in charge of a group of people. Now, factor that in with all the bureaucratic crap that the military deals with, and they just don't know what to do.
Keep in mind that I have not gone through officer training (OTS,OCS, etc), but I worked with a bunch of great officers along with some very clueless officers. Since getting out, I have completed my degree and I think of how many people graduating from college are clueless on how the real world actually works and I picture those clueless officers trying to juggle their daily job along with the scheduling of what the troops need to do as a whole. Of course I do realize that saying "Army Officers Lie" is a broad brush stroke and definitely not all Army officers lie.
What do you all think?
Hahahaha. Everybody lies. Absolutely everyone. Ask a five year old if he helped himself to a chocolate chip cookie out of the cookie jar. He'll swear he didn't. Being in the military, religious, or a child has no effect on one's honesty (or lack thereof). Some of lie about big and small things, some of us lie about big things, and some of us lie about small things. What happens when your wife asks you if she looks fat in her new dress? You know what the answer must be, and honesty has nothing to do with it. Living to see your next birthday is much more important than relieving any pangs of conscience you might feel
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Because we wish to hold them to a higher standard?
