U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Military Life and Issues
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:15 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
I completely disagree. You paint soldiers and service members with a broad brush here. Soldiers and service members raise their hands and swear to defend the US. As they do they are writing a blank check to pay any price up to and including their death whether or not they are combat arms profession or a finance clerk.

In this day and age it is often not the combat veteran that gets injured or killed in our nations wars. Ask the soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company in March of 2003 when they were shot up in route to their assignment. Ask Jessica Lynch whose rescue from Iraqi forces in that time what was the cost of her signing her name on the dotted line.

I don't know if you served in the military. I don't care if you have. You have a right to your opinion and that is something I will stand up and demand, even for you. You can complain all day long about veterans preference as is your right. But do not tell me that just because a service member doesn't carry an M4 or M247 and fire rounds down range in battle it doesn't make his or her sacrifice any less important.

Desert storm Feb 1991 the largest group of service members killed in a single attack were a medical unit. You are right. For every infantry soldier on the battlefield there are 5 support soldiers. But their sacrifice is no less important. So save your ignorance of veterans for someone else. Those lost, wounded and or killed don't need your support. We would prefer you just keep it to yourself.
They actually do need civilian support, every piece of equipment you use was most likely developed by a civilian, all of the gas you use in your equipment, etc. Unfortunately they are all contractors and subject to lay off (at-will employment) when the project ends and have problems getting on as a direct with the feds because military have pref points. On a per capita basis the fed govt is overwhelmingly staffed by ex military.


You would still be fighting with sticks if it were not for civilians. When smart people grow tired of the constant lay offs and artificial political barriers to job security people may choose to take their talents else where. It wont have effects for a long time but I know that the proliferation of constant threat of lay offs is a relatively modern phenomena and I know engineers and scientists that are growing tired of it.


Its not so much that everyone wants to work for the federal govt, its that the fed govt is the only non at-will employer left in the USA (other than a handful of tenure track uni jobs which are even harder to get than a fed job).


Fortunately for you the time that it will take for those consequences to proliferate, we will both probably be dead. Plus another nation will have to pick up the flag and offer good jobs and protections to get people to jump ship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:19 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan View Post
vet points aside, i have no issue with preference because as a vet, it means they were in the former service to the US government, is there a reason an employer does not want a former employee back that left on good terms?

if someone left walmart but they were a good employee, do you care if the manager hires them back? hell, even if the manager prefered the former employee, would you make a big deal of it?
What about someone that worked at Raytheon building your tech, working closely with military and then the project ends and they are laid off (because Raytheon is an at-will employer). why don't those people get status? They are probably doing even more important work than the uniformed folks, so that instead of having to put your boots on the ground you can pilot a little drone and blow stuff up and then get a cup of coffee.


But yet that guy is a second class citizen...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:21 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Or the F-16 maintainer who is probably going to die early from cancer from being doused with hydrazine ("Don't worry, this is a non-toxic form of hydrazine") or the maintainers cleaning the A-10's Gatling gun of depleted uranium deposits--fast and furious for combat turnarounds whether they've got all their protective gear or not.

Or the radioman on a Gnarly Jerk who gets killed in his sleep when the ship runs into a tanker.

Or a bunch of Air Force intelligence troops killed when a bomb explodes in Khobar Towers.


There are whole hosts of dangerous military occupations that don't get anywhere near combat, and when the troops in those jobs sometimes get killed, it reminds us that there aren't many guaranteed safe military occupations after all.
Or the guy pouring the liquid explosives into the atomic bomb ... oh ops he was not in the military .... no points for him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:23 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by zed42 View Post
I have only one thing to say.
Try working on the flight deck of a carrier during air ops and then say they are not worthy.
I am saying there are people just as worthy that did not wear a uniform.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:23 PM
 
15,539 posts, read 7,994,526 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
What about someone that worked at Raytheon building your tech, working closely with military and then the project ends and they are laid off (because Raytheon is an at-will employer). why don't those people get status? They are probably doing even more important work than the uniformed folks, so that instead of having to put your boots on the ground you can pilot a little drone and blow stuff up and then get a cup of coffee..
And they could have also quit and found a better job whenever the opportunity presented itself, or whenever the company required an extremely heinous task.

Most military occupations don't provide an open door to a civilian job afterward. Very few do, in fact. Particularly beyond the 8 year point, the value of military service to a subsequent civilian career nosedives and becomes a definite a liability. Even of occupations that have direct civilian counterparts, there's practically nothing someone in the military can do that is more valuable to a civilian employer after 20 years than it was at four or eight.

The perqs gained after a military career or tour exist because they're necessary to get enough people to sign the unlimited liability contract.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:29 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
And they could have also quit and found a better job whenever the opportunity presented itself, or whenever the company required an extremely heinous task.

The perqs gained after a military career or tour exist because they're necessary to get enough people to sign the unlimited liability contract.
These are highly specialized jobs that you don't just go get another job, I don't know what things are going to look like now that the lay off movement is in full swing but it wont be good. People will start making decisions in light of corporate behavior. This is a relatively new phenomena so the consequences have not fully trickled down yet.


Just because you signed on to be a serf and I am a freeman does not make my work less valuable or my difficulty of finding a new job easy just because im a freeman given the level of specialization to make the military work.


The US military does not win wars because of how long you can stand in the rain or how deep of a hole you can dig with someone yelling at you. B1's, JDAM's, cruise missiles and drones, etc win wars.


Boots on the ground without that tech don't win wars anymore. I don't know what things will look like as the lay off culture keeps rolling down the tracks but I cant imagine its going to be good. Its one thing for a freeman to choose to leave a plantation and its a completely other thing for a baron to kick everyone off the plantation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:41 PM
 
15,539 posts, read 7,994,526 times
Reputation: 14558
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
These are highly specialized jobs that you don't just go get another job, I don't know what things are going to look like now that the lay off movement is in full swing but it wont be good. People will start making decisions in light of corporate behavior. This is a relatively new phenomena so the consequences have not fully trickled down yet.


Just because you signed on to be a serf and I am a freeman does not make my work less valuable or my difficulty of finding a new job easy just because im a freeman given the level of specialization to make the military work.


The US military does not win wars because of how long you can stand in the rain or how deep of a hole you can dig with someone yelling at you. B1's, JDAM's, cruise missiles and drones, etc win wars.


Boots on the ground without that tech don't win wars anymore. I don't know what things will look like as the lay off culture keeps rolling down the tracks but I cant imagine its going to be good. Its one thing for a freeman to choose to leave a plantation and its a completely other thing for a baron to kick everyone off the plantation.
You keep trying to make it about the worth of human beings. It has nothing to do with whether one man is better than another or worth more than another.

You missed my point:

The perqs gained after a military career or tour exist because they're necessary to get enough people to sign the unlimited liability contract.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 06:49 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You keep trying to make it about the worth of human beings. It has nothing to do with whether one man is better than another or worth more than another.

You missed my point:

The perqs gained after a military career or tour exist because they're necessary to get enough people to sign the unlimited liability contract.
I understand what you are saying but what happens when people stop choosing to do this specialized work (or at least stop doing it for the US govt) that makes the modern US military what it is today because they get tired of being laid off. Or what happens when they choose to go else where in the world because the job instability has gotten so extreme?


Another way they can get people to sign the unlimited liability contract is to pay what its actually worth? LOL, instead of a drastically reduced rate from what mercenaries make.


I have talked to some of my govt contractor friends and the companies that hold these contracts with the govt are getting cheaper and cheaper trying to low ball people on both the persons skills and even on working prototypes. Who is going to give up decades worth of hard work and intellectual property for peanuts?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
4,152 posts, read 3,781,447 times
Reputation: 4951
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
They actually do need civilian support, every piece of equipment you use was most likely developed by a civilian, all of the gas you use in your equipment, etc. Unfortunately they are all contractors and subject to lay off (at-will employment) when the project ends and have problems getting on as a direct with the feds because military have pref points. On a per capita basis the fed govt is overwhelmingly staffed by ex military.


You would still be fighting with sticks if it were not for civilians. We still fight with sticks.When smart people grow tired of the constant lay offs and artificial political barriers to job security people may choose to take their talents else where. It wont have effects for a long time but I know that the proliferation of constant threat of lay offs is a relatively modern phenomena and I know engineers and scientists that are growing tired of it.


Its not so much that everyone wants to work for the federal govt, its that the fed govt is the only non at-will employer left in the USA (other than a handful of tenure track uni jobs which are even harder to get than a fed job). It would seem that you are the only one here crying and complaining about not being able to work for the federal government.


Fortunately for you the time that it will take for those consequences to proliferate, we will both probably be dead. Plus another nation will have to pick up the flag and offer good jobs and protections to get people to jump ship. I have no idea what your point is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
I am saying there are people just as worthy that did not wear a uniform. Even you as despicable as you seem are worthy of consideration. It is too bad you just could not land that high tech job in the Federal Government because you would be just as grumpy as some of my supervisors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
These are highly specialized jobs that you don't just go get another job, I don't know what things are going to look like now that the lay off movement is in full swing but it wont be good. People will start making decisions in light of corporate behavior. This is a relatively new phenomena so the consequences have not fully trickled down yet.


Just because you signed on to be a serf and I am a freeman does not make my work less valuable or my difficulty of finding a new job easy just because im a freeman given the level of specialization to make the military work. So because I stood up and said I would defend your right to be obnoxious I am a serf?


The US military does not win wars because of how long you can stand in the rain or how deep of a hole you can dig with someone yelling at you. B1's, JDAM's, cruise missiles and drones, etc win wars. No you are right the US Military doesn't win wars based on your descriptions here. It doesn't win wars by having a drill sergeant yelling at you. You have such a narrow view of what it means to be in the military. You think because that there is some Colt manufacturer out there creating the next death machine that all the glory and honor should go to the civilians who by in large benefit from an all volunteer free standing military.


Boots on the ground without that tech don't win wars anymore. Boots on the ground may not win wars but boots on the ground keep the peace. I don't know what things will look like as the lay off culture keeps rolling down the tracks but I cant imagine its going to be good. Its one thing for a freeman to choose to leave a plantation and its a completely other thing for a baron to kick everyone off the plantation. What the heck are they teaching you kids in school these days? Can you stop crossing thoughts and ideas like Bob Dylan's award winning book "Tarantula?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
I understand what you are saying but what happens when people stop choosing to do this specialized work (or at least stop doing it for the US govt) that makes the modern US military what it is today because they get tired of being laid off. Or what happens when they choose to go else where in the world because the job instability has gotten so extreme?


Another way they can get people to sign the unlimited liability contract is to pay what its actually worth? LOL, instead of a drastically reduced rate from what mercenaries make.


I have talked to some of my govt contractor friends and the companies that hold these contracts with the govt are getting cheaper and cheaper trying to low ball people on both the persons skills and even on working prototypes. Who is going to give up decades worth of hard work and intellectual property for peanuts? It is obvious that you will not be one of those. I am totally glad of that. If I had to deal with you as a PFC in my company asking me why SGT Rock over there gets paid more than you do because you think that you doing the bulk of the work means you should get paid more I might have lost it on you. I am kind of at that point here.

You really need to get a life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2017, 08:48 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 1,906,048 times
Reputation: 1279
I actually agree with PittFlyer. The Federal government needs to hire based on talent and talent alone. Giving points for something you volunteered for is absurd on so many levels. Yes, I have points, but I came into the government through a program that didn't count points because of a hiring authority.

We hire based on diversity, vet vs non vet, gender, etc... and it's just absurd. The feds should focus on retaining the best and brightest and running a strong and proficient government. Unfortunately, that will never happen and we will be stuck with the status quo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Military Life and Issues
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top