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Old 12-06-2017, 10:38 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
You really need to get a life.
So you would be ok if a large number of engineers and scientists and even arms maufactuers decided to just go else where because they were tired of being laid off, low balled and treated like crap.


I dont think you have a real appreciation for how much the military relys on the US inginuity, engineering and technical know how of civilians to make all the stuff the miltiary uses.


The only reason I am not learning German right now is becasue my wife does not want to go there (even though they have very strong unions and getting laid off takes an act of the govt).


I get it, when I was in the guard I had to do basic and I remember in basic they had contractors there building new buildings and all the drill sgt could say was "I hate civilians", the very civilians building the infrastructure he would be using. I dont think that sentimate is rare, but it is ignorant.


The rest of the world found out how leveraging high tech weapons are when germany went to war with everyone and almost won.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:45 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyramidsurf View Post
I actually agree with PittFlyer. The Federal government needs to hire based on talent and talent alone. Giving points for something you volunteered for is absurd on so many levels. Yes, I have points, but I came into the government through a program that didn't count points because of a hiring authority.

We hire based on diversity, vet vs non vet, gender, etc... and it's just absurd. The feds should focus on retaining the best and brightest and running a strong and proficient government. Unfortunately, that will never happen and we will be stuck with the status quo.
Yep, US military soldiers would find out real quick just how important the high tech equipment is that they use if they were to be given old cold war solviet crap up against a well modern armed military.


And yes, by the time the fed job process gets done with all the entitlements and point systems the fact you invented the atomic bomb is almost moot. I heard that buzz aldrin applied for a NASA tour guide through USAjobs and was denied LOL. He probably diliberatly withheld his points to see what would happen, as I think he was actually ex military.


Fed hiring is a joke, it would not be so sobering if the entire nation were not one big at-will lay off s*it show
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
4,152 posts, read 3,781,447 times
Reputation: 4951
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
So you would be ok if a large number of engineers and scientists and even arms maufactuers decided to just go else where because they were tired of being laid off, low balled and treated like crap.


I dont think you have a real appreciation for how much the military relys on the US inginuity, engineering and technical know how of civilians to make all the stuff the miltiary uses.


The only reason I am not learning German right now is becasue my wife does not want to go there (even though they have very strong unions and getting laid off takes an act of the govt).


I get it, when I was in the guard I had to do basic and I remember in basic they had contractors there building new buildings and all the drill sgt could say was "I hate civilians", the very civilians building the infrastructure he would be using. I dont think that sentimate is rare, but it is ignorant.


The rest of the world found out how leveraging high tech weapons are when germany went to war with everyone and almost won.
That shows you had poor leadership while in training. I never once suggested that we do not recognize and appreciate the civilian workforce. In fact I think they have a vital role much as you say. But These veteran preference jobs you speak of are not designing the next Gatling gun or death ray. Hell in fact I am sure we are grateful that they are doing this here and not anywhere else.

But you also miss the point that the vast majority of DOD civilians are not working in research and development. They are in soldier support services. But you don't give a rat's ass about soldiers. You seem to have a great disdain for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Yep, US military soldiers would find out real quick just how important the high tech equipment is that they use if they were to be given old cold war solviet crap up against a well modern armed military.


And yes, by the time the fed job process gets done with all the entitlements and point systems the fact you invented the atomic bomb is almost moot. I heard that buzz aldrin applied for a NASA tour guide through USAjobs and was denied LOL. He probably diliberatly withheld his points to see what would happen, as I think he was actually ex military.


Fed hiring is a joke, it would not be so sobering if the entire nation were not one big at-will lay off s*it show
Okay then let's see where they go. What country will the highly qualified and skilled civilian workforce head to? You think Russia? How about China? Maybe North Korea? Lots of money spent on defense in those countries but at what cost to their freedoms? Okay lets talk friendly countries. Germany? France? UK? What are their expenditures in regards to defense spending compared to US spending. I kind of think they spend way less. So tell me gurus of the high tech civilian generation what freedoms are you willing to give up?

PS Quit crying about not getting that FED job and keep applying. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The hiring authorities are not reading C-D for new recruits.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:56 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
That shows you had poor leadership while in training. I never once suggested that we do not recognize and appreciate the civilian workforce. In fact I think they have a vital role much as you say. But These veteran preference jobs you speak of are not designing the next Gatling gun or death ray. Hell in fact I am sure we are grateful that they are doing this here and not anywhere else.

But you also miss the point that the vast majority of DOD civilians are not working in research and development. They are in soldier support services. But you don't give a rat's ass about soldiers. You seem to have a great disdain for us.



Okay then let's see where they go. What country will the highly qualified and skilled civilian workforce head to? You think Russia? How about China? Maybe North Korea? Lots of money spent on defense in those countries but at what cost to their freedoms? Okay lets talk friendly countries. Germany? France? UK? What are their expenditures in regards to defense spending compared to US spending. I kind of think they spend way less. So tell me gurus of the high tech civilian generation what freedoms are you willing to give up?

PS Quit crying about not getting that FED job and keep applying. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The hiring authorities are not reading C-D for new recruits.
I have disdain for certain military that think all their equipment just materializes out of thin air and they hate civilians because they are "soft" or "don't deploy". Perhaps you are correct and I just got a raw deal working with the clown show of the military when I was in, I hope that is correct. The army corp civilian hiring manager (likely a past vet) I was able to track down had a signature line in his emails saying something to the effect of "if a young man cant do some time in the military they are not competent enough to even make a living, supposedly kennedy said it, but its like ok this guy isent biased lol (since guard does not count as a vet because I did not deploy). We, as a nation, have a hard on for people that "deploy" to the arm pits of the world. Even if there is no good reason to be there its like some kind of coveted boy scouts merit badge that everyone decided was valuable.


As far as the fed jobs you are correct, they are not R&D jobs, however, fed jobs are the last non at-will jobs. For a scientist/inventor/engineer like myself it is EXTREMELY disruptive being in an at-will environment where said at-will policies are flexed in the form of rampant lay offs. I have quite a few projects on my own computer that I do on my own time but I have to have a day job income that feeds that (so that I don't have to sacrifice my intellectual property by taking some kind of grant or what ever).


I have talked to ex co-workers and they have known fed workers who were so underworked that they were able to go get PhD's in physics and one guy actually started making infrared measurement devices to test Northrop grumans equipment. He did advanced mathematics and engineering during his "day job" and then built these scientific apparatus on his off time.


However, the key to all of this was to have that fed job where he was not subject to lay offs so he could focus on the things he did instead of spending inordinate amounts of time hobknobing, networking, applying for jobs, etc.


Another way I can do it (which is the current plan) is to just keep enduring the gig work, at-will culture until my savings and investments are such that I don't really have to work. Of course guess what, once I build something it goes to the highest bidder since I am not doing this because of the US govt but rather in spite of them.


I have been applying to fed jobs since 2015 .... Since I don't have base access there is only so squeaky I can be.


What good is your freedom when you have to spend most of your life playing a political game to keep your job, in Germany they have extreme workers rights, as a company you cant just conduct lay offs (of course this remains to be seen with the whole seimens debacle and how the German govt responds). The key to people migrating is another nation has to decide they want to be world class and create an attractive environment, Germany was there (not sure about now) and Russia is moving that direction. Soon Russia will have more freedom than the USA if we continue in our current trends, Trump still has not addressed H1B (or other) visas which are causing a glut of workers enabling companies to behave the way they do nor has he slapped China with a 45% across the board tarrif, those two things are absolutely key.


Right now the only reason people don't leave is because there is not yet a place to leave to, however, there are a few places (like Russia) that are getting there. Russia is the only world military power to not have allowed the rothschilds to completely rail road their country. They still have a lot of issues but at least they are not allowing Zionist bankers to run their govt.
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Old 12-11-2017, 03:35 PM
 
Location: East Helena, MT
612 posts, read 322,569 times
Reputation: 1522
Wow, there is so much dis information on this thread. Most people don't have a clue how hiring gets completed in the federal government.


First, even though an agency requests a position, USA Jobs is managed by OPM. The agency it's self doesn't have direct control. Once people apply, the applicants are ranked by OPM, which then will send a best qualified list to the hiring official. Prior to that, the hiring official doesn't have any idea who applied. They don't know who are prior military. The hiring official then conducts interviews based on the BQ list, and at that point they are free to hire who they want. The rules only dictate who gets the interview. If the hiring official only wants to hire former Marines, they can do so, as long as they are on the BQ list. Each person on the BQ list is qualified for the position. Most hiring officials will select the best person for the job. If for some reason all of the people on the BQ list turn down the job, (this has happened many times in my agency), the job has to be reposted to USA Jobs, and you have to start all over again. Under no circumstances can you select someone who wasn't on the BQ list.


The only exemption to this is direct hiring authority, which is only used for temporary, not to exceed positions. These are normally highly skilled individuals needed for certain projects, but their employment can only be extended to a maximum of 5 years. After that, if they haven't found a permanent job, they are out of the workforce. All permanent jobs have to go through the USA Jobs site. My wife just took a NTE position, and the contract she signed was very clear that at the 5 year mark, her employment will end. She is free to apply for permanent jobs during this time, and her work experience will count.


When OPM transitioned all agencies to the USA Jobs site, it standardized hiring across the federal government, and eliminated this insider/backdoor hiring.


My agency hates the new system, because it is so slow. But the old system needed to be fixed.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:04 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
Reputation: 2718
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
Wow, there is so much dis information on this thread. Most people don't have a clue how hiring gets completed in the federal government.


First, even though an agency requests a position, USA Jobs is managed by OPM. The agency it's self doesn't have direct control. Once people apply, the applicants are ranked by OPM, which then will send a best qualified list to the hiring official. Prior to that, the hiring official doesn't have any idea who applied. They don't know who are prior military. The hiring official then conducts interviews based on the BQ list, and at that point they are free to hire who they want. The rules only dictate who gets the interview. If the hiring official only wants to hire former Marines, they can do so, as long as they are on the BQ list. Each person on the BQ list is qualified for the position. Most hiring officials will select the best person for the job. If for some reason all of the people on the BQ list turn down the job, (this has happened many times in my agency), the job has to be reposted to USA Jobs, and you have to start all over again. Under no circumstances can you select someone who wasn't on the BQ list.


The only exemption to this is direct hiring authority, which is only used for temporary, not to exceed positions. These are normally highly skilled individuals needed for certain projects, but their employment can only be extended to a maximum of 5 years. After that, if they haven't found a permanent job, they are out of the workforce. All permanent jobs have to go through the USA Jobs site. My wife just took a NTE position, and the contract she signed was very clear that at the 5 year mark, her employment will end. She is free to apply for permanent jobs during this time, and her work experience will count.


When OPM transitioned all agencies to the USA Jobs site, it standardized hiring across the federal government, and eliminated this insider/backdoor hiring.


My agency hates the new system, because it is so slow. But the old system needed to be fixed.

When you are in an NTE position do you get preference as an existing fed employee and is that preference equivalent to veterans status? Or is it like applying from the street?


I agree that this whole federal boondoggle is not all the fault of the hiring manager but OPM is also part of the federal govt, what are their criteria that they are using to put people on the BQ list? My understanding is that the "qualifications" is basically a box checking exercise and so long as a vet meets the minimum quals (ie checks the boxes) it wont matter if a civilian has 20 years of experience and more detailed experience/expertise/etc. So if say the BQ list is 20 people and there are 15 vets who are minimally qualified they will automatically get on the BQ list and then its a blood bath for the other 5 slots.


I am sure I could file a freedom of information act request in order to get the exact process that the OPM uses but that wont help me beat out vets so it would be mostly a waste of time. Unless a job pops up that requires my EXACT niche skills the odds of trying to leverage say a chemical engineering degree for a mechanical engineering spot when a significant amount of my experience involves mechanical wont matter because there are likely an abundance of ME or CE vets (at least enough to bump me out). So unless the job SPECIFICLY requires chemical engineering PLUS a professional license and does not have exemptions I don't bother applying.
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Old Yesterday, 01:11 AM
 
64 posts, read 25,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
Wow,

I second that! haha


Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
temporary, not to exceed positions.

an interesting variation is the TERM position. they are time-limited, but they have regular benefits. including participation in the retirement plan.


so, someone could spend years as a TERM and retire, without ever being a permanent employee.
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Old Yesterday, 09:58 AM
 
132 posts, read 83,856 times
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The reason for the five measly Vet preference points...

Civilian world conversion goes like this: "Kid go put that fuse on that bomb". Kid says, " No way! I quit" and walks away to find a new job.

Military order goes like this: "Private go put that fuse on that bomb". Private say, "Yes Sir!" and obeys the oath he swore at enlistment.

Doesn't seem so hard to understand does it?
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Old Yesterday, 02:14 PM
 
4,360 posts, read 1,646,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC23 View Post
The reason for the five measly Vet preference points...

Civilian world conversion goes like this: "Kid go put that fuse on that bomb". Kid says, " No way! I quit" and walks away to find a new job.

Military order goes like this: "Private go put that fuse on that bomb". Private say, "Yes Sir!" and obeys the oath he swore at enlistment.

Doesn't seem so hard to understand does it?
The reason for that is because the pay is out of alignment for the task. The military uses fear and intimidation instead of paying market rate for such tasks.
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Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
28,166 posts, read 44,439,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomC23 View Post
The reason for the five measly Vet preference points...

Civilian world conversion goes like this: "Kid go put that fuse on that bomb". Kid says, " No way! I quit" and walks away to find a new job.

Military order goes like this: "Private go put that fuse on that bomb". Private say, "Yes Sir!" and obeys the oath he swore at enlistment.

Doesn't seem so hard to understand does it?
We must keep in mind that in the military the 'private' arming a bomb will have attended a 6 month school on how to arm bombs. So that he is confident doing that task.

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