Air Force E-4 Sergeant (Buck Sergeant)

[HDWill1]

Originally Posted by johngolf

When I was in the US NAvy a one star was called a Commodore. Two stars was a Rear Admiral. Navy one stars did not like not being called an Admiral as in all other services a one star was called General so they felt Admiral was appropriate. I agree.

That's kind of a bummer actually. I've always thought Commodore was a cool rank with a rich history.

[txwolfman]

After reading this, I had to research rank history for the Air force.

I enlisted in the Air Force under the DEP program(27 Dec 1973), for six years, with E3 after SIX(6)weeks of Basic Training(20 Jun 1974--2 Aug 1974).

I got my NCO Sergeant (E4) promotion(1 May 1976) one month before SRA program started(1 Jun 1976).

I did not do any NCO leadership Training until Aug 1977(3 days), over a year after promotion to NCO E4.

Insert from Wikipedia
Today, the USAF is again the only United States military service that does not have a non-commissioned officer rank at the E-4 pay grade. Previously, from 1947 to 1952, and from late 1968 or early 1969 to 1997, the rank of Sergeant (E-4) was a non-commissioned officer rank in the USAF. In the interim, from 1952 to at least early 1968, the paygrade rank was titled Airman First Class.

Between its approval on 30 December 1975 (with implementation 1 June 1976) and 19 March 1991, Senior Airmen wore sleeve chevrons with blue center stars instead of silver to distinguish them from the non-commissioned officer rank of "Sergeant", also a pay grade of E-4. The latter was abolished in 1991 and the blue center star was changed to white to conform to all enlisted rank chevrons

Those personnel who had been promoted to Sergeant prior to this cut off date retained the rank until being promoted to a higher rank or leaving the service. There are no longer any personnel on active duty who hold this rank. Due to high year of tenure rules in effect at the time, the last person to hold the rank was forced out of the Air Force on 23 March 1998.[3] Sergeants wore the same chevrons as present-day senior airmen. Senior airmen wore similar chevrons, but with a blue (green on the fatigue or battle dress uniform) subdued central star, as did all airmen in the lowest tier.

[BruceAFSGT]

I was in the very first group of E-4 A1C to be "redesignated" as E-4 Sergeants (1968). I had been an E4 A1C 46250 (aircraft weapons crew chief) for about eight months and one day our Squadron Commander called all the E-4s in and told us we were now NCOs.

We were told that the AF was the only branch of service in which E-4 was not considered an NCO grade, and the AF was just "getting in step" with the rest of the armed services.

Questions followed.

After the questions were answered, it became clear it was just a retention gimmick in an effort to retain troops for the Viet Nam War, and meant very little. There were zero additional benefits. No pay increase, no increased whole baggage limits, we couldn't move into the NCO Barracks, and no other benefits. It was all cosmetic.

I asked our Commander if we could at least go to the NCO Mess Hall (because they had much better food) and he deferred that question to our NCOIC. Our Senior Master Sergeant waffled on the question and said, "Well, technically you're NCOs, but the E-5s and up might frown on an E-4 coming into the NCO Mess Hall (so I took his answer as a "no").

So we were "Sergeants" in name only.

Furthermore, a lot of the newly minted E-5s (in 1968) resented an E-4 being called "Sergeant" (and understandably so), it had taken them a reenlistment and maybe 5-6 years TIS to be referred to as "Sergeant" and now there were tons of guys with perhaps just over 3 years TIS being called "Sergeant."

My DD214 says "Sergeant," and that's how I still refer to my rank in the Air Force (when asked). But I usually get, "don't you mean *Staff* Sergeant"? And when I say, "no, E-4 Sergeant" they usually insist the AF has no such rank. "Not today," I reply, "but they did 50 years ago."
________

I treasure my time in the Air Force. But if I had to enter the Military today, I would get two years of college and go the Warrant Officer route (which excludes the AF). Probably the Army or Navy. The pay, benefits, and retirement are MUCH better than Enlisted.

I was in the AF when they still had a few Warrant Officers on active duty. The official reason the AF gave for phasing them out was: "Our Senior NCOs can perform the same duties." My response was, "That may be so, but you don't PAY your Senior NCOs anywhere near WO pay." And it's the same today.

[Southern man]

Originally Posted by BruceAFSGT

I was in the very first group of E-4 A1C to be "redesignated" as E-4 Sergeants (1968). I had been an E4 A1C 46250 (aircraft weapons crew chief) for about eight months and one day our Squadron Commander called all the E-4s in and told us we were now NCOs.

We were told that the AF was the only branch of service in which E-4 was not considered an NCO grade, and the AF was just "getting in step" with the rest of the armed services.

Questions followed.

After the questions were answered, it became clear it was just a retention gimmick in an effort to retain troops for the Viet Nam War, and meant very little. There were zero additional benefits. No pay increase, no increased whole baggage limits, we couldn't move into the NCO Barracks, and no other benefits. It was all cosmetic.

I asked our Commander if we could at least go to the NCO Mess Hall (because they had much better food) and he deferred that question to our NCOIC. Our Senior Master Sergeant waffled on the question and said, "Well, technically you're NCOs, but the E-5s and up might frown on an E-4 coming into the NCO Mess Hall (so I took his answer as a "no").

So we were "Sergeants" in name only.

Furthermore, a lot of the newly minted E-5s (in 1968) resented an E-4 being called "Sergeant" (and understandably so), it had taken them a reenlistment and maybe 5-6 years TIS to be referred to as "Sergeant" and now there were tons of guys with perhaps just over 3 years TIS being called "Sergeant."

My DD214 says "Sergeant," and that's how I still refer to my rank in the Air Force (when asked). But I usually get, "don't you mean *Staff* Sergeant"? And when I say, "no, E-4 Sergeant" they usually insist the AF has no such rank. "Not today," I reply, "but they did 50 years ago."
________

I treasure my time in the Air Force. But if I had to enter the Military today, I would get two years of college and go the Warrant Officer route (which excludes the AF). Probably the Army or Navy. The pay, benefits, and retirement are MUCH better than Enlisted.

I was in the AF when they still had a few Warrant Officers on active duty. The official reason the AF gave for phasing them out was: "Our Senior NCOs can perform the same duties." My response was, "That may be so, but you don't PAY your Senior NCOs anywhere near WO pay." And it's the same today.

I was US Army. In Korea in 1958, I was a Corporal E4 and the base I was at had lots of AF guys. I got lots of questions from the AF guys about why I could go in the NCO club.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by BruceAFSGT

I treasure my time in the Air Force. But if I had to enter the Military today, I would get two years of college and go the Warrant Officer route (which excludes the AF). Probably the Army or Navy. The pay, benefits, and retirement are MUCH better than Enlisted.

I was in the AF when they still had a few Warrant Officers on active duty. The official reason the AF gave for phasing them out was: "Our Senior NCOs can perform the same duties." My response was, "That may be so, but you don't PAY your Senior NCOs anywhere near WO pay." And it's the same today.

Biggest damned mistake I made in the Air Force was not going Army warrant. I even had two Army warrants tell me to do it. The Air Force had already given me all the clearances and courses that were prerequisites for the warrant MOS (which were hard for soldiers to get).

But I didn't want to go to Army locations (I had been an Army brat) and I didn't really care for Army life.

But the ironic thing in hindsight: Had I gone that route, I'd have still gone to the same joint assignments. The only difference is that I'd likely have gone to Osan rather than Clarke...which would have been an acceptable trade.

So when near the end of career, I ran into one of the warrants who'd advised me at the beginning of my career to go warrant, he said to me, "You didn't do what I told you to do."

[johngolf]

When I was in the US Navy we had EM (Enlisted Men) Clubs for E4's and below. Acey Duecy Clubs for E5 and E6's. Chiefs Clubs for E7's and above Enlisted Men, then Officer's Clubs. Not sure other services broke it down like the US Navy but I know at one US Air Force base I use to visit they had Enlisted and Officer's clubs only but I think the Enlisted Club might have had a Dining Room for E5's and above.

[Slater]

I was a USAF E-4 Sgt in the early 1980's. That was when the USAF had those stupid looking SrA chevrons that were green-on-green or blue-on-blue (depending on which uniform you were talking about). When you made Buck Sgt your star changed colors, but little else did. I knew one guy that retired as a 20 year Buck. Just didn't want any responsibility and preferred coming to work, doing his job, and then going home.

[High_Plains_Retired]

Originally Posted by BruceAFSGT

I was in the very first group of E-4 A1C to be "redesignated" as E-4 Sergeants (1968). I had been an E4 A1C 46250 (aircraft weapons crew chief) for about eight months and one day our Squadron Commander called all the E-4s in and told us we were now NCOs.

Hi Bruce. I went in the AF in 1968 and served first as an F100 crew chief but in a TAC squadron awaiting arrival of the then new F111s to arrive which proved to be an excellent aircraft for rank advancement. I sewed on my Ssgt stripes (E-5) in two and a half years from entering the AF.

I was curious as to what aircraft you worked on as an "aircraft weapons crew chief?" I ask this because we had always called our weapons people "weapons specialists."

The problem with being a f100 and certainly a F111 aircraft crew chief was that, if anyone was on the flightlines working, crew chiefs had to be there. We were the first on the job and the last to leave.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I left the AF after my first four years and used my GI Bill to become a biologist.

[ddeemo]

Originally Posted by johngolf

When I was in the US NAvy a one star was called a Commodore. Two stars was a Rear Admiral. Navy one stars did not like not being called an Admiral as in all other services a one star was called General so they felt Admiral was appropriate. I agree.

The Navy can also be confusing as anyone in Command of a US Navy Vessel is called Captain by the crew even if they are an O1. Often referred to as Ships Captain where as a Captain in the navy is an O6 or a Colonel in other services.

An E4 in the US Navy is a Petty Officer 3rd Class. E4's to E6's (PO3, PO2, PO1). E7s's are referred as a Chief Petty Officer and called Chief. E8's are Senior Chiefs, E9's are Master Chiefs.

I was an E4 in a meeting at an Air Force base and I called an Air Force Colonel, Captain, Captain. He got all over me. Navy ranks can confuse you.......LOL

There was about 35 years (end of WW2 till 1980) when an Navy officer went from 0-6 to 0-8 as far as insignia and title, many had O-7 pay but all wore 0-8 insignia and called Rear Admiral. Commodores during that period were 0-6's in charge of several ships, not flag officers. Army and AF hated it because jumped over BGen rank essentially. In 1981 they introduced the rank called Commodore Admiral but this caused confusions with the Commodores by position and few liked the title so they changed it to Rear Admiral lower half in 1985.

Differences between the Navy and Army/AF ranks leads to some interesting things sometimes. I was taking a MAC flight and when I checked in, they asked my rank, I said Lieutenant - they asked first or second Lt, I said neither, A Navy LT is the equivalent of an Air Force Captain. I guess they put me down as a Navy Captain because they called my name over the loudspeaker to invite me in the O-6 and above area until they saw me walk up.