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The S-400/-500 are game changers. Naturally stealthy aircraft like the F-16 have some advantages going in, but the F-22/-35 are the only real options if they are not observed on radar. And the threat systems are being revised to try to find the stealthy aircraft with technologies like reverse circular polarization and millimeter wave radars. (Not sure what a buke is, unless it's Russian for some type of system.)
While armor is good, and getting better, it's no match for a Hellfire (AGM-114) or Maverick (AGM-65) missile. Even APKWS (laser-guided 70mm rockets) will cause significant mobility kills against T-90s. The Maverick is the weapon of choice for the A-10 but getting to the tank is the problem, and that's one reason why the A-10 is being phased out, you have to get close. A GBU-54 laser-guided JDAM will devastate any armor on the field if it direct-hits the target. Why? 500 lbs of bomb traveling at 1000 feet/sec. Loads of kinetic energy backed up by 200 lbs of trintonal or octol high explosive filler. Trouble with the LJDAM? Only 4 per aircraft.
My belief, for what it's worth, is that directed energy weapons will dominate the mid 21st century battlefield, although they are large and will stay that way. High power lasers will render anything visible obsolete, stealth or otherwise; I have seen, firsthand, what they do to small drones from 3 km away, the result is on a display shelf at Range Control at nearby Fort Sill. Weather is the wildcard, and so it won't be night but bad weather that gives the stealthy aircraft its advantage, unless a low-observable aircraft can eliminate its heat (IR) signature.
The best friend a fighter pilot or bomber pilot may have 50 years from now, if those aircraft are even manned, is the snake eater (Special Ops) on the ground who sneaks up on the DE or SAM site and unloads an AT-4 or RPG on it and disappears into the night.
The S-400/-500 are game changers. Naturally stealthy aircraft like the F-16 have some advantages going in, but the F-22/-35 are the only real options if they are not observed on radar. And the threat systems are being revised to try to find the stealthy aircraft with technologies like reverse circular polarization and millimeter wave radars. (Not sure what a buke is, unless it's Russian for some type of system.)
I think he meant the Buk, the SA-11/SA-17 series air defense systems. Or even the new Buk M3, which as I understand it will pretty much make any battlefield effectively a no-fly zone for the A-10.
The S-400/-500 are game changers. Naturally stealthy aircraft like the F-16 have some advantages going in, but the F-22/-35 are the only real options if they are not observed on radar. And the threat systems are being revised to try to find the stealthy aircraft with technologies like reverse circular polarization and millimeter wave radars. (Not sure what a buke is, unless it's Russian for some type of system.)
While armor is good, and getting better, it's no match for a Hellfire (AGM-114) or Maverick (AGM-65) missile. Even APKWS (laser-guided 70mm rockets) will cause significant mobility kills against T-90s. The Maverick is the weapon of choice for the A-10 but getting to the tank is the problem, and that's one reason why the A-10 is being phased out, you have to get close. A GBU-54 laser-guided JDAM will devastate any armor on the field if it direct-hits the target. Why? 500 lbs of bomb traveling at 1000 feet/sec. Loads of kinetic energy backed up by 200 lbs of trintonal or octol high explosive filler. Trouble with the LJDAM? Only 4 per aircraft.
My belief, for what it's worth, is that directed energy weapons will dominate the mid 21st century battlefield, although they are large and will stay that way. High power lasers will render anything visible obsolete, stealth or otherwise; I have seen, firsthand, what they do to small drones from 3 km away, the result is on a display shelf at Range Control at nearby Fort Sill. Weather is the wildcard, and so it won't be night but bad weather that gives the stealthy aircraft its advantage, unless a low-observable aircraft can eliminate its heat (IR) signature.
The best friend a fighter pilot or bomber pilot may have 50 years from now, if those aircraft are even manned, is the snake eater (Special Ops) on the ground who sneaks up on the DE or SAM site and unloads an AT-4 or RPG on it and disappears into the night.
I believe that it is possible to build a laser system that could be humvee mounted and powered to destroy a target from around 5 miles away. The materials technology is there now to pump huge amounts of energy into a continuous wave (CW) CO2 laser system without damaging it. My hope is to pump 10kw in and get 5 kw out. Then the trick is finding a convex out/output coupler that can combine the beam strength of say 6 continuous wave lasers into one. Not sure I am completely sold on the wave guide pulse lasers though. The trick with cw lasers is cooling you have to cool and ground the gas with every cycle and cool the internal optics and the output coupler, but I still think a modified large cut down hummer could accomodate at least a 10kw laser which can still do alot of damage.
Energy weapons could end politicians abiltiy to launch cruise missles from the comfort of a conferance room as well, I mean if it can shoot down a plane why not a crusie missle which is just a little turbine powered fast plane ... really.
Never heard of circular polarization radar sounds cool, I am guessing it has to do with special radio wave optics to project waves of every angle and not just one angle but I would think that would have to be directed and the return wave sensor would be tricky to design.
No one wins in bad weather if your ground units are mobile. I suppose you could have a fLIR war lol, you might be able to mask your exhaust enough to fool a missle but not a guy behind a laser wtih a flir who is firing line of sight of course you will see the laser power up too.
For ground troops a good ole mine field will do the trick, its really easy to create area denial from ground troops and make life hell on them to get to you. It might be good for the officer to have a way to remote detonate all of them once the theater moves though because no one wants a nation full of land mines 20 years later. But you also dont want your high dollar tech assets that are protecting your hide and way of life compromised either. Also its one thing getting marines, navy seals and the like into coastal towns where we have total dominance of the waters off shore and its another thing to get troops 500 miles into Russia where we may not control the waters and are at risk from enemy subs and the like, the complexity gets really convoluded (no pun intended ... with all the math and engineering talk lol) when you are up against a real enemy. Also to get on foot units that far inland the C-130 will be on radar and they will be looking for you. The real advantage of the US is the sea domanance and forcing the enemy inland, if you cant control your coast line you have pretty much already lost, but I gaurentee russia is working on anti ship stealth torpedos with nuke tips to ensure that carrier goes to the bottom rather than just floating around with battle damage. But how do you make a torpedo invisible to sonar ... in theory such a weapon could be launched from a large PT boat that no one sees until its too late.
Figuring out how to cool the internal output coupler is going to keep me up now ugh.
I think he meant the Buk, the SA-11/SA-17 series air defense systems. Or even the new Buk M3, which as I understand it will pretty much make any battlefield effectively a no-fly zone for the A-10.
Another terrific post, by the way. Thanks again!
They will make it a no fly zone for everything but an F22/F35 but I gaurentee that when they start getting ghost radar images of the F22 they will have migs up and the F22 wont survive a knife fight with a mig 29, you have to shoot him down before he gets line of sight. Though the J turn on an F22 is pretty impressive I am sure the mig 29 without the stealth incombrances can do way more in a knife fight though and take way more damage, the first bullet that knicks that F22 and its an ejection (I am slightly exagerating but they cant take much battle damage). Not sure how it would play out because a sidewinder fired from long range is not hard to dodge from what I have been told and if the F22 turns on its radar then its stealth is gone. I am really curious how the F22 can pick up an enemy before the enemy sees him since the mig should have the ability to detect the direction the radar came from, but maybe now since its a spherical wave from the sensors point of view. Not sure if there is a way for a sensor to figure out where the derivative is zero ...
F15 and f16 are not imune to the buk or SA missles. Though I think the SA 400/500 are for super high flying bombers to ensure nothing can sneak over at 80k feet and bomb you. lasers will likely never reach that far up unless they are stationary weapons which just become massive targets. I seen picutres of them and they look massive almost like a mini satalite launch vehcial but they are still mobile.
As a old Marine ground pounder there's nothing better than having that A-10 on station. We consider that pilot one of us.
While the slow speed of the A-10 can be a weakness against some things, it's a strength against the ground in many situations. To many times we've had faster support be able to make a few very fast passes without being able to effectively hit what we needed hit. It just seems the A-10s slower speeds allow them to really line it up and punch what we needed punched. Yes, maybe that's been the last few theaters. But as a foot soldier I simply haven't seen a more modern alternative that delivers the support capabilities to straight up infantry like the A-10 does. Maybe getting in the mud isn't sexy for the Air Force brass, but it means a hellva lot to us for those that will.
They will make it a no fly zone for everything but an F22/F35 but I gaurentee that when they start getting ghost radar images of the F22 they will have migs up and the F22 wont survive a knife fight with a mig 29, you have to shoot him down before he gets line of sight. Though the J turn on an F22 is pretty impressive I am sure the mig 29 without the stealth incombrances can do way more in a knife fight though and take way more damage, the first bullet that knicks that F22 and its an ejection (I am slightly exagerating but they cant take much battle damage). Not sure how it would play out because a sidewinder fired from long range is not hard to dodge from what I have been told and if the F22 turns on its radar then its stealth is gone. I am really curious how the F22 can pick up an enemy before the enemy sees him since the mig should have the ability to detect the direction the radar came from, but maybe now since its a spherical wave from the sensors point of view. Not sure if there is a way for a sensor to figure out where the derivative is zero ...
F15 and f16 are not imune to the buk or SA missles. Though I think the SA 400/500 are for super high flying bombers to ensure nothing can sneak over at 80k feet and bomb you. lasers will likely never reach that far up unless they are stationary weapons which just become massive targets. I seen picutres of them and they look massive almost like a mini satalite launch vehcial but they are still mobile.
This really belongs more in the Aviation forum. However, in response, and without getting into seriously classified discussion totally inappropriate to this medium, I must say that in a turning fight (aka knife fight, aka visual dogfight), unlikely against a 5th-Gen aircraft, the F-22 pretty much owns the MiG-29. And the SU-27, -30 and even -35. And everything else. The hows and the whys of the radar and its onboard and offboard sensors are impressive... the F-22 doesn't need to have the radar on in order to have situational awareness, like the F-35 it is a "sensor sponge" and takes in all sorts of data. I have flown against the F-22 and in one case was lucky enough to get into a turning fight with one, but only lasted about 30 seconds, and I started with an advantage.
This really belongs more in the Aviation forum. However, in response, and without getting into seriously classified discussion totally inappropriate to this medium, I must say that in a turning fight (aka knife fight, aka visual dogfight), unlikely against a 5th-Gen aircraft, the F-22 pretty much owns the MiG-29. And the SU-27, -30 and even -35. And everything else. The hows and the whys of the radar and its onboard and offboard sensors are impressive... the F-22 doesn't need to have the radar on in order to have situational awareness, like the F-35 it is a "sensor sponge" and takes in all sorts of data. I have flown against the F-22 and in one case was lucky enough to get into a turning fight with one, but only lasted about 30 seconds, and I started with an advantage.
It might be true this belongs in the aviation form but I have found that things "military" personel related almost alway denigrates into a pissing match so this is a nice discussion. So it sounds like the biggest game changer will be ground based laser systems, there is no dodging them and an F22 would have no idea they were there till its too late, nothing to dog fight with, nothing to detect your just shot down
Or drone fighters that can pull 35 G force turns and are as big as a large cessna. I am surprised that the russians have not started working on drone fighters. Any nation with drone fighters and lasers will own any theater. The tricky part is the development of AI becasue you dont want an antenna into the drone you want to lanuch it and you want it to engage on its own. They could be made of carbon fiber and would be super light, the armarment would be the heaviest parts
Last edited by pittsflyer; 09-18-2016 at 09:42 PM..
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