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Old 05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
LOL? YGBSM. I gotta respond to an asinine comment like the bolded above.


One of the very BEST sticks I have ever known, Steve "Syph" Phillis, is very dead because of an SA-9 or SA-13 SAM. His stick and rudder skills were second to none, but he was on the losing end of an unobserved SAM launch while aiding a stricken wingman.


I too took 18 credits of engineering plus three credits ROTC in the POC course (21 total) for four semesters (junior/senior years) so don't play the professional victim game.
I don't know what the professional victim game is? I honestly don't.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:15 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS2753 View Post
There will always be retention issues in times of airline hiring booms. Which is happening now. As for recruiting and obligations, the years required for active duty have varied over the years. But I doubt you'll ever be able to just walk away within the period of obligation.

I will suggest the recruiting problem likely has more to do with the quality of the applicant pool, rather than any actual shortage. Standards may be tweaked downward some, but not as radically as you desire.
I don't think there should be a reduction in standards just more honesty in contracting.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:17 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basse Bud View Post
Sorry, pal, once you are accepted into the military, you have agreed to serve " at the pleasure of the government". If you are unwilling or unable to accept that responsibility under those conditions, you do not have the "right" to wet your knickers, plead your incredible education, and demand/expect to be handed what you deem is your reward for being who/what you are.

Suck it up and shut up!

The military is not obligated to accept you for any or every reason; you do not have the "right" to demand the military owes you a job or position.

Whine elsewhere
I agree, but the military serves at the pleasure of the people and the civilian govt. So said contracting CAN change if people get fed up enough with it. That's all im saying.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:20 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS2753 View Post
Does your passion for F-22's exceed your laundry list of things you hate about the military?
The F22 is an amazing plane. I love military tech just not military contracts.


Military contracts are predatory and dishonest. It sounds like you like the military having the ability to take wash outs and make them do some other thing they don't want to do in the military instead of letting them walk for not meeting standards, I personally think that's wrong so we will have to agree to disagree.


I don't think the military should ever lower standards even a little, but those that don't meet said standards should not be forced to take some other job "at the pleasure of the military", that is where we disagree.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:53 PM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
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If we allow people to cherry-pick their assignments, and serve at their own leisure, we end up as... Belgium.


This obsession with the "contract" is puzzling. It's not a contract, it's a commitment. There is a difference. When I accepted an AFROTC four-year scholarship, the Air Force had me for six years after graduation; they changed the commitment from four to six before I signed on the line. The "clock" reset when I received my wings to six years from the date of graduation from UPT.

I was fortunate, as a top 10% in my class, to get what I wanted, where I wanted. That was the A-10 to the SE United States, and I was given the great opportunity to fly with the 23rd TFW "Flying Tigers". Of 36 US active duty students, 9 of us got to fly fighters. Probably half of my class wanted to fly fighters, but only 25% got to do so. Would those who didn't get what they wanted be allowed to resign? Of course not, and none would have, they received USAF wings, making them a small minority in the US populace.

Follow-on assignments: I flew the Hog for three years. After that, there was the dreaded ALFA tour. That's Air Education and Training Command, lead-in fighter training, forward air controller and air liaison officer tour. I wanted to go to Fighter Weapons School, the USAF version of Top Gun, or Davis-Monthan as an A-10 instructor. Only 20% of Hog drivers got those. No such luck for me, I ended up in the OV-10. Reason for the ALFA tour? Spread that young-captain fighter pilot experience around and offer career-broadening. If offered the chance to skip the ALFA tour and exit the military, I think a lot of folks would, especially those who end up as ALOs. Being an ALO sucked, but I would not trade my time on the ground with the Army for anything. In my peer group, those who ended up with an ALFA tour were usually pissed off and many swore they'd get out at the first opportunity. "I'm a fighter pilot, dammit, not a FAC (or AETC instructor)!" The carrot at the end of the stick was what you wanted, pretty much where you wanted if available (I wanted an F-16 to Nellis, oh, well, Kunsan isn't Vegas but...)

If everyone who wanted a specific job in the military got it, there would be a lot of med techs, artillerymen, truck drivers, and F-22 pilots. Someone has to fly the A-10, I certainly would, but I'm retired. Someone has to fly the B-52... given the opportunity, I sure would. And if someone can't cut it as a pilot, he or she is still an officer and has a lot to offer; I was in 28 years, but only ~22 of those years were as a pilot, the other six were on the staff or in non-flying leadership positions. Those have to be filled, too.

Maybe one of the reasons there is a shortage of pilots is too much of a "well, what's in it for ME?" and "That long? Too hard!" We don't need that kind of attitude in a profession that requires discipline and dedication.

Last edited by SluggoF16; 05-15-2017 at 03:16 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:15 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
If we allow people to cherry-pick their assignments, and serve at their own leisure, we end up as... Belgium.


This obsession with the "contract" is puzzling. It's not a contract, it's a commitment. There is a difference. When I accepted an AFROTC four-year scholarship, the Air Force had me for six years after graduation; they changed the commitment from four to six before I signed on the line. The "clock" reset when I received my wings to six years from the date of graduation from UPT.

I was fortunate, as a top 10% in my class, to get what I wanted, where I wanted. That was the A-10 to the SE United States, and I was given the great opportunity to fly with the 23rd TFW "Flying Tigers". Of 36 US active duty students, 9 of us got to fly fighters. Probably half of my class wanted to fly fighters, but only 25% got to do so. Would those who didn't get what they wanted be allowed to resign? Of course not, and none would have, they received USAF wings, making them a small minority in the US populace.

Follow-on assignments: I flew the Hog for three years. After that, there was the dreaded ALFA tour. That's Air Education and Training Command, lead-in fighter training, forward air controller and air liaison officer tour. I wanted to go to Fighter Weapons School, the USAF version of Top Gun, or Davis-Monthan as an A-10 instructor. Only 20% of Hog drivers got those. No such luck for me, I ended up in the OV-10. Reason for the ALFA tour? Spread that young-captain fighter pilot experience around and offer career-broadening. If offered the chance to skip the ALFA tour and exit the military, I think a lot of folks would, especially those who end up as ALOs. Being an ALO sucked, but I would not trade my time on the ground with the Army for anything. In my peer group, those who ended up with an ALFA tour were usually pissed off and many swore they'd get out at the first opportunity. "I'm a fighter pilot, dammit, not a FAC (or AETC instructor)!" The carrot at the end of the stick was what you wanted, pretty much where you wanted (I wanted an F-16 to Nellis, oh, well, Kunsan isn't Vegas but...)

If everyone who wanted a specific job in the military got it, there would be a lot of med techs, artillerymen, and F-22 pilots. Someone has to fly the A-10, I certainly would, but I'm retired. Someone has to fly the B-52... given the opportunity, I sure would. And if someone can't cut it as a pilot, he or she is still an officer and has a lot to offer; I was in 28 years, but only 22 of those years were as a pilot, the other six were on the staff or in non-flying leadership positions. Those have to be filled, too.

Maybe one of the reasons there is a shortage of pilots is too much of a "well, what's in it for ME?" and "That long? Too hard!" We don't need that kind of attitude in a profession that requires discipline and dedication.
What is wrong with Belgium? Sounds like you would get people in all rolls who actually want to be there rather than having to strong arm people with threats of article 15's and levenworth etc.


Also I made it as a pitts pilot which is arguably a very difficult aircraft to handle, just because im not willing to accept an unbalanced contract (or commitment) terms does not mean im not willing to work hard for what I want. The issues arise when the military starts trying to pound square pegs in round holes (ie people that washed out of what ever program and now they are trying to fit them in where ever there is a need). My life philosophy does not rely on luck, its hard work and dedication ... to what it is I want to do, not pissing away a half a decade of my life because I lost a dice roll. The thought of all my options being taken away as soon as I wash out at ANY phase is pretty sobering, loosing that much time not being able to advance my goals is unsettling.

Yea you still get the fed pref points for govt jobs that would be cool, you get some other perks, but is it worth 4-6 years of my life to waste doing something that does not advance your life.


If other rolls cant be filled without exploiting the person who lost the dice roll then maybe they need to up the pay for those jobs ... when the pay gets high enough people will take them.


I also worked with 2 ex military mechanics to get signed off to take my A&P and will be building my own hangar at a muni airport, I may eventually upgrade airframes to a carbon fiber mono-wing, if that's not dedication and hard work I don't know what is. That's also outside of my BS and PE in chemical engineering and hopefully I passed my EE PE I just took. I am also hoping to complete a masters in mathematics/applied physics once I can find the right program.


The difference .... I am in the drivers seat for all of these activities, there is no board or man behind the curtain who is deciding my fate other than meeting standards (FAA, NCEES, university, etc). But the uni cant say hey you got a C in this one class we have decided you are now going to major in logistics ... just because there is a vacancy.

Last edited by pittsflyer; 05-15-2017 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 03:25 PM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
11,941 posts, read 5,475,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
What is wrong with Belgium? Sounds like you would get people in all rolls who actually want to be there rather than having to strong arm people with threats of article 15's and levenworth etc.
The Belgium comment? As an ALO, in Northern Germany, I got to operate with a US Army armored battalion in conjunction with a Belgian unit. They could decide if they wanted to participate in REFORGER operations or not, and usually did not. Hardly training for combat. (Their Air Force is different, I trained Belgian F-16 pilots, lots of contempt for their ground-pounders in their Air Force. They DID have really good chocolate, which for some reason they traded for our cheese glop in our MREs during that REFORGER.)

And you don't strong-arm anyone. The threat of Art 15 and Leavenworth (note correct spelling) is reserved for those who flat refuse to do their job. Or blatantly disregard rules (such as drug use, had to kick out a couple airmen for that... saddens me today that they threw their life away like that). There are occasions when non-judicial punishment is required, but I only used that twice as a commander... both were DUIs, so what could I do?

On Topic: as long as the airlines are hiring and paying what they are now, there will be a shortage of pilots in the military. (Starting pay at FedEx, the best first year pay in the mid-90s, was $37K a year circa 1995. It's now more than double that. I'm a civilian now, but I work directly for military personnel, and my two last bosses just started at FedEx earlier this year and American this month without much of a pay cut.) What's happening now happened in the late 90s as well, Guard units were hiring ANYONE just to fill their cockpits. Then they had an overage by 2003. Cyclical.

You must've had a really bad experience in the military but I suspect a look in the mirror is warranted.

Last edited by SluggoF16; 05-15-2017 at 04:25 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:30 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
The Belgium comment? As an ALO, in Northern Germany, I got to operate with a US Army armored battalion in conjunction with a Belgian unit. They could decide if they wanted to participate in REFORGER operations or not, and usually did not. Hardly training for combat. (Their Air Force is different, I trained Belgian F-16 pilots, lots of contempt for their ground-pounders in their Air Force. They DID have really good chocolate, which for some reason they traded for our cheese glop in our MREs during that REFORGER.)

And you don't strong-arm anyone. The threat of Art 15 and Leavenworth (note correct spelling) is reserved for those who flat refuse to do their job. Or blatantly disregard rules (such as drug use, had to kick out a couple airmen for that... saddens me today that they threw their life away like that). There are occasions when non-judicial punishment is required, but I only used that twice as a commander... both were DUIs, so what could I do?

On Topic: as long as the airlines are hiring and paying what they are now, there will be a shortage of pilots in the military. (Starting pay at FedEx, the best first year pay in the mid-90s, was $37K a year circa 1995. It's now more than double that. I'm a civilian now, but I work directly for military personnel, and my two last bosses just started at FedEx earlier this year and American this month without much of a pay cut.) What's happening now happened in the late 90s as well, Guard units were hiring ANYONE just to fill their cockpits. Then they had an overage by 2003. Cyclical.

You must've had a really bad experience in the military but I suspect a look in the mirror is warranted.
Someone forced into a job they did not want in the first place is going to have a hard time performing.


I don't have the appearance of "hustle", despite the fact that I perform.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
12,117 posts, read 39,493,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Someone forced into a job they did not want in the first place is going to have a hard time performing.


I don't have the appearance of "hustle", despite the fact that I perform.
So, assuming you got into the cockpit, could you be counted on to look out for your wingman like Mr. Phillis did? Ask that guy in the mirror, would he hang his own arse out to save his buddy, or would he "look out for #1?". (You don't want to know, what it looks like from here, what I guess you would do.) A very primary military quality is that you take care of your subordinates, your peers, and even your superiors. Being called a "diode", at least amongst the Nuclear Navy guys I trained up with, is a pretty damn serious put down. Particularly on a sub, it only takes one serious screw-up to lose the boat and all hands. As in, "sunk" and "dead".

You know, in any professional job, a lot of what's required is to keep your head when unexpected things happen.

What about managing airmen? What ya gonna do, when the cops bring one of "your guys" back to base and say he was picked up DUI? You gonna yell at the cops, because you really don't want this mess dumped on your doorstep, or are you going to be professional, ask for the evidence against this guy (or gal, anymore) and handle the situation according to the regs? Because this is part of the job. As Sluggo said. (You don't want to know, what it looks like from here, what I guess you would do.)

Really, any professional job is going to have those moments, when you are hit with something that is sort of peripheral to the job itself, but, if you are a real professional, you take care of business. Doctor, Lawyer, Indian Chief (and if you think Indian Chief is an easy or cushy position, you don't know the first thing about it...) you handle the unexpected mess, you get up out of the bed at 0300, shake yourself awake, and even though you would really like to punch someone who really deserves it, you don't, you maintain a professional attitude, you handle the situation according to the regs, according to your training.

Given the attitude you have displayed here, you know, maybe a "5 and 40" job, where you are a technical contributor, but with relatively limited "people" responsibilities, would be a better fit for you. Just sayin'. I hope I am wrong. But, sadly, I doubt it.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:46 PM
 
4,113 posts, read 1,557,978 times
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Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
So, assuming you got into the cockpit, could you be counted on to look out for your wingman like Mr. Phillis did? Ask that guy in the mirror, would he hang his own arse out to save his buddy, or would he "look out for #1?". (You don't want to know, what it looks like from here, what I guess you would do.) A very primary military quality is that you take care of your subordinates, your peers, and even your superiors. Being called a "diode", at least amongst the Nuclear Navy guys I trained up with, is a pretty damn serious put down. Particularly on a sub, it only takes one serious screw-up to lose the boat and all hands. As in, "sunk" and "dead".

You know, in any professional job, a lot of what's required is to keep your head when unexpected things happen.

What about managing airmen? What ya gonna do, when the cops bring one of "your guys" back to base and say he was picked up DUI? You gonna yell at the cops, because you really don't want this mess dumped on your doorstep, or are you going to be professional, ask for the evidence against this guy (or gal, anymore) and handle the situation according to the regs? Because this is part of the job. As Sluggo said. (You don't want to know, what it looks like from here, what I guess you would do.)

Really, any professional job is going to have those moments, when you are hit with something that is sort of peripheral to the job itself, but, if you are a real professional, you take care of business. Doctor, Lawyer, Indian Chief (and if you think Indian Chief is an easy or cushy position, you don't know the first thing about it...) you handle the unexpected mess, you get up out of the bed at 0300, shake yourself awake, and even though you would really like to punch someone who really deserves it, you don't, you maintain a professional attitude, you handle the situation according to the regs, according to your training.

Given the attitude you have displayed here, you know, maybe a "5 and 40" job, where you are a technical contributor, but with relatively limited "people" responsibilities, would be a better fit for you. Just sayin'. I hope I am wrong. But, sadly, I doubt it.
That is true, I opted out of management rolls early on in my career to go deep technical. It turned out to work because middle management is the first to go when things get tight, technical people get kept on. I also don't see piloting as a people job. A flight of fighters is what 7 planes with between 7 and 14 people, there would have to be commradary and friendships, it would be more than a job, but I don't see how it is a leadership roll, your flying awesome planes with your buddies and once in a blue moon bad crap goes down.


As far as dealing with the DUI guy that is an artificial construct by the military to make pilots officers, there is almost no relation between leadership abilities and piloting, WW2 pilots did an exemplary job and they were all/mostly? enlisted.


There is a difference between having to load your own missiles on to your plane or doing your own repairs and washing out and not ever being able to fly because the military put you in some other roll. Its like night and day.


Imagine washing out of flight but yet not being able to leave and get a job that will give you the financial ability to go buy a high perf stunt plane since the military cut you of your dream, and I don't mean go fly a C150 at the aero club but full blown pitts, edge 540, extra 300 souped up for full blown air show perf, those planes are big money. Is the military going to give someone the time and latitude to build their own edge 540 and fly it, what if you get hurt, your GI and that's not your job?

Last edited by pittsflyer; 05-15-2017 at 05:57 PM..
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