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Old 05-15-2017, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,346 posts, read 3,692,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
What is wrong with Belgium? Sounds like you would get people in all rolls who actually want to be there rather than having to strong arm people with threats of article 15's and levenworth etc.


Also I made it as a pitts pilot which is arguably a very difficult aircraft to handle, just because im not willing to accept an unbalanced contract (or commitment) terms does not mean im not willing to work hard for what I want. The issues arise when the military starts trying to pound square pegs in round holes (ie people that washed out of what ever program and now they are trying to fit them in where ever there is a need). My life philosophy does not rely on luck, its hard work and dedication ... to what it is I want to do, not pissing away a half a decade of my life because I lost a dice roll. The thought of all my options being taken away as soon as I wash out at ANY phase is pretty sobering, loosing that much time not being able to advance my goals is unsettling.
Then don't wash out. That's in your control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittsflyer
Yea you still get the fed pref points for govt jobs that would be cool, you get some other perks, but is it worth 4-6 years of my life to waste doing something that does not advance your life.


If other rolls cant be filled without exploiting the person who lost the dice roll then maybe they need to up the pay for those jobs ... when the pay gets high enough people will take them.


I also worked with 2 ex military mechanics to get signed off to take my A&P and will be building my own hangar at a muni airport, I may eventually upgrade airframes to a carbon fiber mono-wing, if that's not dedication and hard work I don't know what is. That's also outside of my BS and PE in chemical engineering and hopefully I passed my EE PE I just took. I am also hoping to complete a masters in mathematics/applied physics once I can find the right program.


The difference .... I am in the drivers seat for all of these activities, there is no board or man behind the curtain who is deciding my fate other than meeting standards (FAA, NCEES, university, etc). But the uni cant say hey you got a C in this one class we have decided you are now going to major in logistics ... just because there is a vacancy.
In a military context: Why should you, who got a C or the equivalent in a military standard, get a coveted slot over someone who didn't get the C? Who didn't wash out?
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:56 PM
 
3,575 posts, read 1,231,366 times
Reputation: 2182
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTransplant View Post
Then don't wash out. That's in your control.



In a military context: Why should you, who got a C or the equivalent in a military standard, get a coveted slot over someone who didn't get the C? Who didn't wash out?
you shouldn't you should however get to walk away.


also I have a friend that went through flight and the things that can wash you out can be very trivial, they design the programs to create wash outs and many washout before they even see a cockpit. Navy flight used the FAA civilian process only with extra wash out stuff that was not nessecary to being a good stick and rudder pilot, I don't remember the details now but the military sprinkled stuff in just to make it harder.


A plane is a plane is a plane, these planes are built by civilians and the principles of flight are the same the military just finds ways to make it a quagmire because it is so coveted, so be it but don't make people be indentured servanted for a change to fly.

Last edited by pittsflyer; 05-15-2017 at 05:06 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:29 PM
 
Location: SW OK (AZ Native)
10,912 posts, read 4,834,764 times
Reputation: 4787
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
That is true, I opted out of management rolls early on in my career to go deep technical. It turned out to work because middle management is the first to go when things get tight, technical people get kept on. I also don't see piloting as a people job. A flight of fighters is what 7 planes with between 7 and 14 people, there would have to be commradary and friendships, it would be more than a job, but I don't see how it is a leadership roll, your flying awesome planes with your buddies and once in a blue moon bad crap goes down.


As far as dealing with the DUI guy that is an artificial construct by the military to make pilots officers, there is almost no relation between leadership abilities and piloting, WW2 pilots did an exemplary job and they were all/mostly? enlisted.


There is a difference between having to load your own missiles on to your plane or doing your own repairs and washing out and not ever being able to fly because the military put you in some other roll. Its like night and day.


Imagine washing out of flight but yet not being able to leave and get a job that will give you the financial ability to go buy a high perf stunt plane since the military cut you of your dream, and I don't mean go fly a C150 at the aero club but full blown pitts, edge 540, extra 300 souped up for full blown air show perf, those planes are big money. Is the military going to give someone the time and latitude to build their own edge 540 and fly it, what if you get hurt, your GI and that's not your job?
The US Army Air Corps trained ~2600 enlisted, for mostly liaison and observation aircraft, between 1941 and 1942. Most ended up as officers when the program ended in 1942. Of 325,000+ cadets who started training, 40% washed out or were killed in training accidents. That's about 135,000 officer candidates, leaving almost 190,000 officer candidates who went on to fly in WWII.


I sense arrogance about the Pitts. Big deal. You want to afford a Pitts or Extra or an old warbird? Go airlines. It'll pay for the two ex-wives as well. (I'm still on #1, but not an airline pilot, either.)


As for washing out, there are three things that get you kicked out. They haven't changed as of a call I made to the 88th FTS DO at Sheppard AFB this afternoon (in response to this nonsense). They fly at my range.


1. You can't fly. Not everyone has Golden Hands, some people have Hormel Hands.
2. You can't take woefully easy (they give you a master question file) exams. Academic washouts are nearly unheard-of. but they happen, we had one. He busted EVERY test he took, and they only let you fail five.
3. Officership. I only know one person who ever failed that, and with not one but two DUIs, well, the commander's hands were tied.


Other failure reasons: Manifestations of Apprehension (MOA). That's fear of flying. Hard to counter that, I sure would not want someone freaking out the first time they saw AAA or a SAM fired their way. (It'll happen, but you revert to training like Ed Tullia and fight back.) or self-initiated elimination (SIE), you're just not a good fit as a pilot. Three students in my class.

Last edited by SluggoF16; 05-15-2017 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
2,346 posts, read 3,692,668 times
Reputation: 3750
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
you shouldn't you should however get to walk away.


also I have a friend that went through flight and the things that can wash you out can be very trivial, they design the programs to create wash outs and many washout before they even see a cockpit. Navy flight used the FAA civilian process only with extra wash out stuff that was not nessecary to being a good stick and rudder pilot, I don't remember the details now but the military sprinkled stuff in just to make it harder.


A plane is a plane is a plane, these planes are built by civilians and the principles of flight are the same the military just finds ways to make it a quagmire because it is so coveted, so be it but don't make people be indentured servanted for a change to fly.
What I believe you're saying is people should be allowed to leave the military if they don't get exactly the slot they want or they fail in the training for that slot. I respectfully disagree.

If you are given an opportunity, and the consequences of squandering that opportunity are reclassification to the "needs of the service", well, don't squander the opportunity. Don't ***** about how hard or unfair it is it is-just don't blow it.

If the opportunity is needs of the service and you can't live with that, don't sign up.

Simple. Easy. If you don't like it, don't do it-as you obviously didn't. And I think both you, and the service, are much better for not having each other.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:46 PM
 
3,575 posts, read 1,231,366 times
Reputation: 2182
Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
The US Army Air Corps trained ~2600 enlisted, for mostly liaison and observation aircraft, between 1941 and 1942. Most ended up as officers when the program ended in 1942. Of 325,000+ cadets who started training, 40% washed out or were killed in training accidents. That's about 135,000 officer candidates, leaving almost 190,000 officer candidates who went on to fly in WWII.


I sense arrogance about the Pitts. Big deal. You want to afford a Pitts or Extra or an old warbird? Go airlines. It'll pay for the two ex-wives as well. (I'm still on #1, but not an airline pilot, either.)


As for washing out, there are three things that get you kicked out. They haven't changed as of a call I made to the 88th FTS DO at Sheppard AFB this afternoon (in response to this nonsense). They fly at my range.


1. You can't fly. Not everyone has Golden Hands, some people have Hormel Hands.
2. You can't take woefully easy (they give you a master question file) exams. Academic washouts are nearly unheard-of. but they happen, we had one. He busted EVERY test he took, and they only let you fail five.
3. Officership. I only know one person who ever failed that, and with not one but two DUIs, well, the commander's hands were tied.


Other failure reasons: Manifestations of Apprehension (MOA). That's fear of flying. Hard to counter that, I sure would not want someone freaking out the first time they saw AAA or a SAM fired their way. (It'll happen, but you revert to training like
Ed Tullia and fight back.) or self-initiated elimination (SIE), you're just not a good fit as a pilot. Three students in my class.
I never made it to actual flight school, I got caught up with a recruiter that did not want to send me to OTS, tried army guard and they have two basic trainings and an extra 6 years to go to flight I was not informed of prior to going to basic.


Tried doing the AFA and did not get in, and tried doing AFROTC but I did not like the contracting. Its not arrogance its proof that people can fly and fly well and not make the military flight gauntlet.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
11,433 posts, read 37,699,480 times
Reputation: 8378
Quote:
Originally Posted by SluggoF16 View Post
The US Army Air Corps trained ~2600 enlisted, for mostly liaison and observation aircraft, between 1941 and 1942. Most ended up as officers when the program ended in 1942. Of 325,000+ cadets who started training, 40% washed out or were killed in training accidents. That's about 135,000 officer candidates, leaving almost 190,000 officer candidates who went on to fly in WWII.


I sense arrogance about the Pitts. Big deal. You want to afford a Pitts or Extra or an old warbird? Go airlines. It'll pay for the two ex-wives as well. (I'm still on #1, but not an airline pilot, either.)


As for washing out, there are three things that get you kicked out. They haven't changed as of a call I made to the 88th FTS DO at Sheppard AFB this afternoon (in response to this nonsense). They fly at my range.


1. You can't fly. Not everyone has Golden Hands, some people have Hormel Hands.
2. You can't take woefully easy (they give you a master question file) exams. Academic washouts are nearly unheard-of. but they happen, we had one. He busted EVERY test he took, and they only let you fail five.
3. Officership. I only know one person who ever failed that, and with not one but two DUIs, well, the commander's hands were tied.


Other failure reasons: Manifestations of Apprehension (MOA). That's fear of flying. Hard to counter that, I sure would not want someone freaking out the first time they saw AAA or a SAM fired their way. (It'll happen, but you revert to training like
Ed Tullia and fight back.) or self-initiated elimination (SIE), you're just not a good fit as a pilot. Three students in my class.
So, of your three ways to flunk out, it seems to me # 2 and 3 can be taken care of by saying "Don't be an idiot". #1 is maybe harder. Would someone at least getting to their private pilot's ticket more or less prove to themselves that they don't have "Hormel hands"? If not, what would?

As for MOA, it seems to me some people naturally freak out when "stuff happens" and some don't, (experience with nuclear power - IMHO similar to flying in terms of "complicated operations of high risk equipment", but without the need to be able to figure out what's going on in terms of G's, attitude, speed, etc.) I guess if they wet their pants when the instructor pushes in the throttle and says "OK find a place to land" they have MOA problems, but I could see a guy handling that, yet freaking out if he knows a SAM is incoming, one with his name on it.

I guess the OP has made his decision, but maybe some kids thinking about a military pilot career are reading this, thus the question. I agree that some of what's been said is pretty much nonsense, I for one have learned some things reading this thread (things that I just like to know for the sake of academic curiosity).

Maybe you could say a couple of words about the video- I am sure it's old hat and obvious to you, I guess the icon in the middle of the screen that looks like an F-16 in cross section represents the plane, but what is that line in the last minute or so? From the sounds of heavy breathing, I guess that pilot didn't really have to hit the gym that day to stay in shape.

Last edited by M3 Mitch; 05-19-2017 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:18 PM
 
3,575 posts, read 1,231,366 times
Reputation: 2182
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
So, of your three ways to flunk out, it seems to me # 2 and 3 can be taken care of by saying "Don't be an idiot". #1 is maybe harder. Would someone at least getting to their private pilot's ticket more or less prove to themselves that they don't have "Hormel hands"? If not, what would?

As for MOA, it seems to me some people naturally freak out when "stuff happens" and some don't, (experience with nuclear power - IMHO similar to flying in terms of "complicated operations of high risk equipment", but without the need to be able to figure out what's going on in terms of G's, attitude, speed, etc.) I guess if they wet their pants when the instructor pushes in the throttle and says "OK find a place to land" they have MOA problems, but I could see a guy handling that, yet freaking out if he knows a SAM is incoming, one with his name on it.

I guess the OP has made his decision, but maybe some kids thinking about a military pilot career are reading this, thus the question. I agree that some of what's been said is pretty much nonsense, I for one have learned some things reading this thread (things that I just like to know for the sake of academic curiosity).

Maybe you could say a couple of words about the video- I am sure it's old hat and obvious to you, I guess the icon in the middle of the screen that looks like an F-16 in cross section represents the plane, but what is that line in the last minute or so? From the sounds of heavy breathing, I guess that pilot didn't really have to hit the gym that day to stay in shape.
A big part of the issue is the gauntlet even getting to day one of flight school. You have to either be accepted to the academy and endure 4 years of hazing, go through university ROTC and endure less hazing but the same contract terms (first 2 years you can walk away but you have to contract when you show up at year 3 (which is WELL before you even know if you will go flight), if for any reason you dont finish ROTC or academy you owe the military 4 years as an E4!!! even in the case of ROTC where you paid your own way for the first 2 years!!! (Plus basic hazing between your sophmore and junior years for ROTC ). Granted who wants to drop out of school, you went to university for a reason after all to improve your chances of sucess in life. So you make it to graduation while enduring the nonsense of ROTC (which goes beyond the lead lab once a week) which disrupts academics for people that need to spend more time on study to be successful. Once you graduate I am not sure if flight candidates are sent right to flight after graduation of there is more bolony to wade through.


Regarding the OTS route, officer recruiters are VERY far and few between and I was able to get them to start a folder for me and that was about it, very low motivation to pick people up through OTS route, this of course will likely depend on timing and how bad the military is hurting for certian career fields. When I was talking to the officer recruiter they were hurting for nurses and medical people (which seems to always be the case), getting board certified doctors and nurses to expose themselves to deployment and less pay is likely a challenge.


While the military uses the private pilot cirriculum for phase one they give holders of a PPL almost no credance prior to signing up, getting selected to flight, etc. I have no idea why this is the case, unless its because they want people to get a PPL with hazing blended in to make it artificailly harder? I am only speculating at this point because a PPL is a PPL it is a federally issued cert.


Getting into the AFA is extremely competitive and I did not have the SAT verbal scores to get in after spending a summer studying for an retesting 4 times. My math scores and GPA did get me into a nationally recognized top tier school but the cirriculum was brutal and there was no room for the nonsense that ROTC created if I was to be successful and actually graduate with a half way decent GPA. I am sure others had an easier time of it and could afford the time to go stand in formation or listen to a useless speach on the air force rather than studying infinate series for differential equations.


Signing the blank contract in a poor job market is probably not the worse thing in the world but I have a fundamental adversion about signing contracts from a position of negitive leverage, the whole point of a contract is it should be equitable for both parties, we dont have indentured servitude in this nation anymore. Also during my sophmore year the job market had not soured yet.


Then there is OTS which is a last ditch effort, you have only a few years after you graduate before your too old to enter flight school, lots of paperwork and basic hazing to go through to enter flight before your 27th birthday. Looking at the list of thunderbirds only one was OTS out of the entire crew of flying pilots thats pretty low odds.


So yea if you have made it through all that then at some point WAY down the road it probably does boil down to having hormel hands. The ironic thing (and im not being arrorgant) that I now fly a Pitts S2B, sluggo can poop poo that all he wants but I have talked to FBI, trooper, CIA pilots that I have known through frineds through the years and I am told by everyone that these biplanes are some of the toughest to fly, they are squirly and unforgiving. the steerman was the WW2 washout plane, stamped right on the plate at the WW2 aviation museum in Hawaii.


I got washed out by the massive military gauntlet long before flight school and I turned out to be a great pilot
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