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Old 07-05-2018, 01:32 PM
 
2,923 posts, read 1,707,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
But how to accomplish this? The structure and sense of purpose instilled by the military could play a part. And I have a former tenant who quit a job at the local McDonald's to join the Marines, who might have some thoughts on this.
if I were young and unemployed, underemployed, working at McDonalds or just restless, no direction in life, I would join the Armed Forces
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Elysium
5,804 posts, read 3,087,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
if I were young and unemployed, underemployed, working at McDonalds or just restless, no direction in life, I would join the Armed Forces
Taiko in 1981.

However using the military as post high school citizenship building might work for Israel but for those nations not facing their challenges and needing everybody in the service it sounds like the impetus for Heinlein to write Starship Troopers.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:20 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 591,143 times
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I would say the OP is missing the point in a lot of ways. The military changed permanently in the US when the draft ended, so did the anti war movement. Nixon brilliantly eliminated the anti war movement overnight when he ended the draft. The majority of people in the anti war movement were opposed to being sent to Vietnam. Every war since has been fought by a volunteer military, not a civilian military.
As far as the military as a source of employment, it really depends whether or not you will be in combat. If you are going to be paid to kill people and maybe get killed yourself, you are better off being a hitman. Every combat vet I ever spoke to from WWII to Vietnam said if they had known the reality of combat in advance of having experienced it, and had the choice, they would have chosen not to go.
In regard to employment, it has always been difficult for the average person to get a start in life. The fact there are no more heavy industries doesn't mean people will starve or become criminals. There's nothing wrong with starting your work life in an industrial kitchen, or mopping floors or cleaning toilets. I've done all that. It's honest work. There are enough opportunities for education and training out there for people to climb the ladder in life to do everything that has always been done, get a decent job, get married, raise a family if you desire, and have a modest retirement. I've done all that too.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:28 PM
 
Location: East Helena, MT
763 posts, read 478,094 times
Reputation: 2003
Hey OP, first of all, the young people you mention have to want to be in the armed forces. Without that starting point, nothing else matters. If they do, the assistance they need is already there, as long as they are physically fit/medically cleared join. The first week of boot camp is spent just going over basic life skills, for this very reason. Now is there room for a better job program for recent high school grads, yes.


I have a co-worker from Russia. She explained that high school students there are tested, and separated into different paths based on intelligence. She scored extremely well in language arts, so she went to a high school that specialized on that. She learned English, and Mandarin Chinese. She never attended college in Russia. Her husband was very good in Math and did go to college, he is now a Mechanical Engineer and works for a major railroad.


The point is that they don't believe in a general education approach. I think this is why are youth is screwed up.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,361 posts, read 6,783,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
We have examples of siege warfare going back to 3,000 BC. There is nothing "recent" about organized armies.
The example here isn't the same; those early armies were under the control of feudal war-lords, usually limited in sides, and the indigenous population weren't as likely to be caught up in the fighting, The mechanization of warfare, and its linkage to the nation-state, is a relatively new development,, and thankfully it as only been practiced once on a global scale; I don't think civilization can survive an attempt to practice it again.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:19 PM
 
17,889 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
Taiko in 1981.

However using the military as post high school citizenship building might work for Israel but for those nations not facing their challenges and needing everybody in the service it sounds like the impetus for Heinlein to write Starship Troopers.
The impetus for Heinlein to write Starship Troopers was the repudiation of citizenship responsibilities that was being evidenced by the industrial and political elite of the late 50s (interestingly, he was in the middle of writing his most significantly socially liberal novel--Stranger in a Strange Land--which he paused to quickly write Starship Troopers. Most people would never believe the same man wrote both novels, not to mention having written them at the same time).

In the Starship Troopers society, those who had a desire to become the political elite of the nation were required to display willingness to shoulder extraordinary responsibility for the security of the nation. Not everyone...just those who wanted to run things.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,361 posts, read 6,783,711 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The impetus for Heinlein to write Starship Troopers was the repudiation of citizenship responsibilities that was being evidenced by the industrial and political elite of the late 50s (interestingly, he was in the middle of writing his most significantly socially liberal novel--Stranger in a Strange Land--which he paused to quickly write Starship Troopers. Most people would never believe the same man wrote both novels, not to mention having written them at the same time).

In the Starship Troopers society, those who had a desire to become the political elite of the nation were required to display willingness to shoulder extraordinary responsibility for the security of the nation. Not everyone...just those who wanted to run things.


Heinlein may have been a juvenile-oriented sci-fi writer, but he had an outstanding ability to think (and on many subjects), to express his thoughts, and to encourage his readers to do the same.

Bravo! I'm delighted that someone else first brought up his name.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Malibu, CA
147 posts, read 54,713 times
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The US military is an out-of-control monstrosity. We spend more on it than all other countries combined, including China & Russia. We have 4000 nuclear warheads, enough to lay waste to the Earth. Meanwhile, our domestic life is constantly short changed. Public schools chronically short on funds, lack of affordable housing in many cities, healthcare coverage too expensive, always waiting in long lines at gov't offices, roads and bridges in bad shape, medical research to cure cancer always short of funding, etc, etc, etc.

There's no reason the military gets $Trillion every year when people's everyday needs are ignored. A military of this size has NO role in any world!
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,721 posts, read 47,472,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
... Juvenile judges used to offer some young offenders a choice between the military or jail, and I'm sure that if the military were actually compelled to shoulder that responsibility again, it could do so. Maybe they'll just dig ditches and fill them in for a time, but at least the point that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" will be driven home.
The US military no longer has people who do not want to be there. There was a time when they dealt with enlistees who had no desire, but that was many policy changes ago.



Quote:
... I can also recall one or two people I met, while working in more urbanized areas, who acknowledged that military service taught them to function, and eventually prosper, in an open economy.
I served 20 years on Active Duty, I believe that most men I served with, eventually went on to prosperous civilian careers.

I was offered a few very nice post-military careers.



Quote:
... Because what we have at present clearly isn't working
You mean with nearly 100% employment?
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:52 PM
 
17,889 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skygazer1 View Post
The US military is an out-of-control monstrosity. We spend more on it than all other countries combined, including China & Russia. We have 4000 nuclear warheads, enough to lay waste to the Earth. Meanwhile, our domestic life is constantly short changed. Public schools chronically short on funds, lack of affordable housing in many cities, healthcare coverage too expensive, always waiting in long lines at gov't offices, roads and bridges in bad shape, medical research to cure cancer always short of funding, etc, etc, etc.

There's no reason the military gets $Trillion every year when people's everyday needs are ignored. A military of this size has NO role in any world!
I would point out that most of the 620 billion (not trillion) gets spent on weapon research and procurement, not to have an effective military. Congress appropriates new money that pleases industry and constituencies, as well as jingoistic political rhetoric, but not enough to maintain optimum combat effectiveness.

Money for mundane training, spare parts, maintenance, et cetera, doesn't give politicians back-home bragging rights.

Right now, the Air Force has for years failed to attract enough pilots to match attrition rates. There are so few flightline aircraft maintainers that many wings are barely able to keep planes flying meet training requirements (much less an extended combat operations tempo), and their attrition rate is greater than accessions as well.

The Navy has admitted that the recent Pacific collisions was not, in reality, the inexcusable negligence on the part of a few officers (which is why they got off quite light considering that sailors died), but the fact that the Navy has only 250 ships maintaining the same operational tempo once maintained by 600 ships.

If funding for accession, training, operations, and maintenance continues as is are right now, the Air Force will collapse within a decade, the Navy not too much longer after that.
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