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Old 07-18-2018, 05:20 PM
 
644 posts, read 139,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arwenmark View Post
OP:
My guess would be Air Force as well.
BTW where did your screen name come from if you don't mind me asking?
I kept hearing that name ever since I was a kid during reading of the Offertory at mass.

Also, my son wanted an unusual confirmation name and I suggested Melchisedec.
He then had to write a paper about him as part of confirmation assignment.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:28 PM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
24,080 posts, read 38,745,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchisedec View Post
Enlisted men are forced out if they don't advance.
Pretty vague statement... That can be said about the human race... Don't advance, you are gone...

For the Army, here is an artcle from Rode Powers: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/en...simple-3331909

Quote:
Enlisted Promotions Made Simple
Army Enlisted Promotion System
settings Military Ranks Stripes and Chevrons. Vector Set Army Insignia
•••
By Rod Powers
Updated February 02, 2018

Each year, when Congress passes the Defense Authorization Act, the Army is instructed on exactly how many people can be on active duty during the year. By separate legislation, Congress also limits what percentage of the total active duty force can serve in each commissioned officer rank, what percentage of the total active duty force can serve in each warrant officer rank, and what percentage of the active duty force can serve in each enlisted rank, above the grade of E-4 (there are no statutory limits for E-4 and below).

That, then, becomes the basis of the Army enlisted promotion system. The Army takes the number of "slots" they have for each enlisted rank, above the rank of E-4, and allocates them to the different MOS's (enlisted jobs). In other words, MOS 123 may be allowed to have 5,000 E-5s at any point in time, and 2,000 E-6s and MOS 456 may be authorized 7,000 E-5s, and 5,000 E-6s (as a general rule, the higher the rank, the fewer positions there are).

To promote someone (above the rank of E-4), there must be a "vacancy." For example, if an E-9 retires in a certain MOS, that means that one E-8 can be promoted to E-9, and that opens an E-8 slot, so one E-7 can be promoted to E-8, and so forth. If 200 E-5s get out of the Army in a particular MOS, then 200 E-4s can be promoted to E-5.

The Army has 401,138 enlisted members on active duty. Here's how it breaks down, by enlisted rank:

Private (E-1)—20,284 (5.1 percent)
Private (E-2)—3,334 (9.1 percent)
Private First Class (E-3)—56,757 (14.1 percent)
Specialist/Corporal (E-4)—107,634 (26.8 percent)
Sergeant (E-5)—73,034 (18.2 percent)
Staff Sergeant (E-6)—56,664 (14.1 percent)
Sergeant First Class (E-7)—36,725 (9.2 percent)
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8)—10,541 (2.6 percent)
Sergeant Major (E-9)—3,165 (0.8 percent)

So, how does the Army decide which enlisted members are going to get promoted? They do this using three systems: Decentralized promotions for promotion to the grades of E-2 through E-4, Semi centralized promotions for promotion to the grades of E-5 and E-6, and centralized boards for promotions to E-7, E-8, and E-9.
Decentralized Promotions (E-2 through E-4).

Decentralized Promotions means that the unit (company) is the promotion authority. By theory, the commander decides who gets promoted and who doesn't. In actuality, because there are no quotas for promotion for E-2s through E-4s, commanders pretty much promote everyone (as long as they do their job okay and don't get into trouble) who meet the "promotion criteria." The "promotion criteria" is set by the Army to ensure that the "promotion flow" remains stable, and everyone (regardless of MOS) can expect to be promoted at the same (approximate) time-frame.

For soldiers in MOS 19D, and 19K IET, commanders, may promote up to 10 percent of each 19D and 19K class upon completion of basic combat training (BCT) portion of one station unit training (OSUT) to PV2 and an equal number to PFC upon graduation from the MOS producing course.

Finally, if the unit is undermanned in specific grades, the Army may allow the unit commander to waiver TIG and TIS requirements. When specifically authorized, the commander can waive up to 2 months TIG for promotions to E-2, 6 months TIS/2 months TIG for promotions to E-3, and 6 months TIS/3 months TIG for promotion to E-4.

The promotion criteria for promotion to the ranks of E-2 to E-4 are:

Private (E-2)—Six months time-in-grade (TIG) as a private (E-1).
Private First Class (E-3)—Four months TIG as a Private (E-2) and 12 months time-in-service (TIS).
Specialist/Corporal (E-4)—Six months TIG with 24 months TIS.

There are some exceptions to the rules on the previous page. First, in the Army, it's possible to join an advanced rank (up to E-4) for certain accomplishments, including college credits, Junior ROTC, or even referring other applications for enlistment, while a member of the Delayed Enlistment Program (DEP).

Second, soldiers in Special Forces (18X) can be promoted to E-4 with just 12 months TIS, and no specific TIG requirement.

An E-4 can be either a "specialist" or a "corporal" in the Army. So, what's the difference? Well, they both get paid the same. However, a corporal is considered a noncommissioned officer and a specialist is not. A corporal has more authority under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and has a greater degree of leadership responsibility. An E-4 is normally designated an NCO (corporal) if they are a team or section leader. Corporals are more common amongst the Combat Arms, but many Combat Support MOS's (jobs) may have them.
Semi-Centralized Promotions (E-5 and E-6)

A semi-centralized promotion process means that the unit (company) plays a part in the promotion selection process, but it's the Army (Army-wide) who decides who gets promoted. As I mentioned at the beginning of the article, within each Army MOS (job) there are limited numbers of who can hold the ranks of E-5 and E-6 at any given time. When vacancies open up (due to people getting promoted or people getting out), the Army has to decide (Army-wide) which E-4s (within that MOS) to promote to E-5 and which E-5s to promote to E-6.

There are two promotion processes known as "Primary Zone" and "Secondary Zone." Most enlisted are promoted in the "Primary Zone." The "Secondary Zone" gives an opportunity for commanders to give "exceptional performers" an early shot at promotion. Time-in-Service and Time-in-Grade requirements for promotion consideration in the two zones are:

Primary Zone

Sergeant (E-5)—8 months TIG as an E-4 and 36 months (3 years) TIS.
Staff Sergeant (E-6)—10 months TIG as an E-5 and 84 months (7 years) TIS.

Secondary Zone(Exceptional Performers)

Sergeant (E-5)—4 months TIG and 18 months TIS.
Staff Sergeant (E-6)—5 months TIG and 48 months (4 years) TIS.

The process (for either zone) begins with "Administrative Points." A soldier receives promotion points for various accomplishments, such as military decorations (medals), and PFT (Physical Fitness Test) scores.

Administrative points consist of the following:

Duty Performance (maximum 150 points)—The unit commander awards duty performance points, based on recommendations from the individual's supervisor(s). The commander may award up to 30 points in each of the following areas: Competence (Is the soldier proficient and knowledgeable? Does he/she communicate effectively?) Military Bearing (Is the soldier a "role model," in the areas of appearance and self-confidence?) Leadership (Does the soldier motivate others, set high standards, show proper concern for the mission?) Training [Individual and Team Training.] (Does the soldier share knowledge and experience? Does he/she teach others?) Responsibility/Accountability (Equipment, facilities, safety, conservation).

Awards and Decorations (maximum 100 points)—Some military awards (medals) are given a specific promotion-point value.
Military Education (maximum 200 points)—Many military training courses (Ranger School, Platoon Leaders Development Course, military correspondence courses, etc.) are worth a certain number of promotion points.
Civilian Education (maximum 100 points)—The Army gives promotion points for off-duty education, such as college courses, or business/trade school courses.
Military Training (maximum 100 points)—Points are given for scores achieved on the Army Physical Fitness Test, and scores achieved on the Rifle/Pistol Range.

Promotion Boards. The next part of the process is the Promotion Board. To convene a promotion board, the commander must be in the grade of Lieutenant Colonel (O-5) or above. That means, if the company commander is an O-5, the board can be conducted by the company. However, if the company commander is an O-3, the member will meet the board conducted by the next level of command (such as Battalion) where the commander is at least an O-5.

Some E-4s can be promoted to Sergeant (E-5) without a promotion board, under a new Army promotion policy.

The promotion board consists of at least three voting members and one nonvoting member (the recorder). The President of the Board is the senior member. If the board consists of all enlisted members (NCOs), then the President of the Board should be (if possible) the Command Sergeant Major. If not possible, then the President can be a Sergeant Major (E-9). All members of the board must be at least one grade senior to those being considered for promotion (For example, for an E-5 promotion board, all of the members must be in the grades of E-6 or above).

If available, there must be at least one voting member of the same sex as the soldiers being considered. For example, if a board is considering 50 E-5s for promotion to E-6, and 2 of those being considered are female, the board should have at least one female voting member. Additionally, each board should have at least one voting minority member (African American, Hispanic, Asian, etc.).

Soldiers physically appear before the promotion board. Each board members ask a series of questions, and scores the candidate in four separate areas:

Personal appearance
Oral expression and conversation skills
Knowledge of world affairs
Awareness of military programs
Knowledge of basic soldiering (Soldier's Manual)
Soldier's attitude (includes an assessment of the soldier's and potential for promotion, trends in performance, etc.).

Each board member rates each of the above areas as follows:

Average—1 to 7 points
Above Average—8 to 13 points
Excellent—14 to 19 points
Outstanding—20 to 25 points

The maximum number of points that can be awarded by each board member is 150 points, total. The total points for all the voting board members are totaled and then divided by the number of board members. It results in an "average score" by the board. That becomes the soldier's "promotion board points" (maximum of 150).

The board takes one final action—they vote on whether or not they recommend the candidate for promotion. If a majority of the members vote "no," then the individual will not be promoted, regardless of how many total administrative and board points they have.

The board points are then added to the administrative points. The maximum possible combined administrative points and board points is 850.

To be placed on the promotion "recommended list," a soldier eligible for promotion to E-5 must achieve a minimum of 350 combined administrative and board points. A soldier eligible for promotion to E-6 must have at least 450 total promotion points.

Soldiers who make it through all of the above are placed on the "Recommended List," and there are only a certain number of vacancies available in each MOS for each enlisted grade. Each month, the Army looks at each MOS and determines how many people within the MOS they need to promote to fill the vacancies (remember, vacancies within each grade are created when someone gets promoted out of that grade, gets out of the Army, or re-trains into a different MOS).

Let's say that there are 700 E-4s (Army-wide) on the "recommended list" for promotion to E-5 in MOS 123, "Left-Handed Fence-Pole Climber." The Army Personnel Computers do their magic and determine that to fill the vacancies; they must promote 50 E-4s within the MOS to E-5 during the month of June. The Army looks at all the scores (total administrative points and board scores) of all the soldiers on the "recommended list" within that MOS. The 50 E-4 soldiers with the most combined points within that MOS (Army-wide) will be promoted.

The person (within that top 50) that has the lowest score establishes the score cut-off. In other words, let's say that the 50th person on the list has a total score of 450 (out of 800 possible). The Army will then send out a message saying that everyone in MOS 123, on the "Recommended List" for promotion to E-5 with a score of 450 or greater will be promoted.

Of course, some MOS's (jobs) have faster (average) promotion times than others. Why? It's because there are more vacancies within that MOS. For example, if MOS 123 is not a pleasant position or the civilian-equivalent pays high, a lot of E-4s and E-5s will get out (or possibly retrain) after just one 4- or 5-year hitch. That means there are fewer E-4s and E-5s competing for open promotion vacancies, which means less competition, which, in turn, generally means one needs a lower "cut-off" score to be promoted.

Additionally, if the job pays high in the civilian sector, more senior NCOs will elect to retire at 20 years of service, instead of staying for 25 or 30 years, thereby opening up more promotion slots.
Centralized Promotions (E-7, E-8, and E-9)

Centralized promotions are conducted Army-wide, at Army Personnel Headquarters. The unit/battalion has nothing (or little) to do with the promotion process. There are no minimum time-in-grade requirements for promotion to E-7, E-8, or E-9, but soldiers must meet the following minimum time-in-service requirements to be eligible for promotion:

Sergeant First Class (E-7)—6 years
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8)—8 years
Sergeant Major (E-9)—9 years

(Note: This doesn't mean that you'll find too many (or any) Sergeant Majors with only 9 years in the Army. As you'll see below, the promotion board puts a lot of stock into experience. Someone with only 9 years in the Army is unlikely to have enough experience to impress the promotion board members).

The Centralized Promotion Board consists of at least five members. The board can (and usually is) divided into separate panels, which, in turn, review/score the promotion records for those being considered in different MOS's. If so, each panel must include at least three voting members. The President of the Board must be a General Officer. Board members are commissioned officers and Senior NCOs.

Unlike the promotion boards for E-5s and E-6's, soldiers do not personally meet the Centralized Board. The board makes their decisions based on the contents of the soldier's promotion records.

Each year, the Army decides how many soldiers within each MOS it plans to promote to the ranks of E-7, E-8, and E-9. For example, if the Army plans to promote 17 E-7 soldiers in MOS 123 to E-8 within the next year, they basically say to the board, "Here are the promotion records of everyone eligible for promotion to E-8 in MOS 123. Please review these records, discuss them, vote, and select 17 of them to be promoted within the next 12 months."

Soldiers eligible for consideration may write to the president of the promotion board to provide documents and information drawing attention to any matter concerning themselves that they feel is important to their consideration. Although written communication is authorized, it is only encouraged when there is something that is not provided in the soldier’s records that the soldier feels will have an impact on the board’s deliberations.

The promotion records consist of pretty much everything that is in the soldier's military records, including decorations (medals), dates of service, dates of assignments, duty positions (past and present), performance reports, educational accomplishments, military training, official photograph, records of disciplinary action, such as Article 15, or courts-martial convictions, letters of reprimand, etc.

The members of the board discuss and score each record, and then make a determination as to whether or not the individual should be promoted (remember, the board is told in advance exactly how many in each MOS can be promoted that year).

The negative part of this process is that if a member is not selected, the board will not tell him/her (individually) why. However, following the conclusion of the board, the President publishes a synopsis, which gives an overview of which factors (in general) the board looked at the most (which may or may not have any bearing on what is primarily looked at the next year).

The Army then takes all the selectees (without regard to MOS), and assigns them a promotion sequence number, which is assigned according to seniority. For example, if it's the E-7 list, the Army will give the lowest sequence number (0001) to the E-7 selectee with the most time-in-grade as an E-6. Each month, for the next 12 months, the Army will then release the sequence numbers of those to be promoted during that month. It ensures a smooth promotion flow for the following 12 months (when the next board will meet and do everything all over again).

Note: You've probably noted that, like corporal/specialist, the grade of E-8 is also divided into two ranks: Master Sergeant and First Sergeant. Like the specialist/corporal, Master Sergeants and First Sergeants are paid the same (both are E-8s). However, the First Sergeant has a much larger degree of authority and responsibility. The First Sergeant wears special rank (with a diamond) and is the top enlisted leader in the unit. First sergeants work directly for the unit commander and are responsible for the morale, welfare, and discipline of all of the enlisted members assigned to the unit.

For more details, see Dedication to the First Sergeant and Day in the Life of a First Sergeant.

So, how long does it take to get promoted in the Army? Remember, it's dependent on the particular MOS (job) and how many vacancies (due to separations and retirements) there are in that job. On average, however, one can expect to be promoted with the following time-in-service (2001 statistics):

Private (E-2)—6 months
Private First Class (E-3)—1 year
Specialist/Corporal (E-4)—18 months
Sergeant (E-5)—4.2 years
Staff Sergeant (E-6)—8.5 years
Sergeant First Class (E-7)—13.6 years
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8)—17 years
Sergeant Major (E-9)—20.8 years
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:08 PM
 
17,832 posts, read 9,778,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchisedec View Post
Enlisted men are forced out if they don't advance.
It's gotten a bit tighter in the Air Force than it used to be, but an enlisted person who can't keep up to speed well enough to stay ahead of high year of tenure is just kind of slacking, or did something pretty stupid, or had too much really bad luck to count as danger common to most.

Although in the Air Force you do have to watch your rear closely, because a stunt that would get a troop jerked around a bit in other services will get you dis-invited to re-enlist in the Air Force.

But it doesn't take the gamesmanship that it does for officers just to do 20.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
4,481 posts, read 1,108,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchisedec View Post
I always am interested in statistics about the military .

I was wondering if anyone has the statistic for each branch of what percent of enlisted men who enlisted in 2000, are still on active duty today.

I searched places on the internet, but could not find that info.

I was wondering if that info would sway a young man in his decision as to which branch to enlist if he was thinking of staying in.
If you searched correctly you would've found it, the answer is Air Force and it's not even close. (look at the second chart on the page)

https://qz.com/929153/only-one-in-fi...-retire-at-40/


And before that "sways" anyone's decision on which branch to join, only 17% of servicemen stick around that long and MOST are officers due to the generous pension they receive as opposed to the enlisted. In the Air Force, promotion to O4 (Major) is 100% automatic because many officers still don't want to stay in.

An enlisted retired E8/E9 gets something like $2800/$2900 per months and it's taxed. So you're not exactly living large, you'll still need a second career after retirement and good look finding a lucrative career at 40+ in the age of of ageism.

Only the very best and brightest can serve 20+ years of a grueling career.

Last edited by Rocko20; 07-18-2018 at 09:20 PM..
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:13 PM
Status: "Living the good retired life." (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Wasilla, AK
5,816 posts, read 3,102,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
That's probably because most people are pushed out by the asinine "up or out" policy.

The rank structure is going to resemble a pyramid. There isn't enough room in the military for every single person who wants to stay to move up. The military promotes the best and the brightest in order to have the best NCO cadre possible. It's in the military's best interest and the country's. Some people simply aren't going to make the cut. Life's not fair and neither is military service.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:41 PM
 
Location: USA
128 posts, read 65,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InchingWest View Post
That only applies to officers O-5 and above. If they don't make O-6 after a certain amount of TIG (time in grade) they are placed into forced retirement. Of course if you are an O-5 you have probably served 18 years at a minimum, so by the time you are forced to retire you should be well passed 20. When I was in the Army the career track for officers was usually to make O-3 by about only 3-4 years in service, but then spend the next 10 years as an O-3 so that by the time they made Major they had a minimum of 13-14 years experience. Yes, at O6 people start becoming political animals, and to go beyond that and become a flag officer takes some political savvy.

With enlisted ranks, sure there were plenty of people at the E7 level hoping to make E8 and E8s hoping to finally make E9, but in many MOS' had to wait years for a vacancy. Enlisted personnel aren't forced to retire if they don't move up. Of course during the high turnover years that I served people were promoted very quickly. I was an E5 after only 2¾ years, and it was not uncommon to see guys make "7 after 7" (E7 right at 7 years of service which was the earliest someone could attain that rank, but because of which rule I do not know).
Inching, you're partially correct about the officer corps, but completely and ridiculously WRONG about enlisted ranks. Of course personnel policies vary by branch, but within the Army (and others) its been common practice to have "up or out", aka "retention control points" by grade. For example, practically no service permits E-3s past 6 years of service. E-4? Usually somewhere between 8 and 10 years of service. E-5? usually between 12 and 15 years of service.

As for promotions, you've no idea how it works. Utter bs on your "7after7" (that's completely made-up nonsense). Uniformed personnel regulations are available online for each service if you care to research.

In summary, there's always been an "up or out" (retention control point) policy for all grades, both officer and enlisted, from E-1 through E-9 and O-1 thru O-10. Who controls the policy for what grades is variable. The final regulatory authority is the Congress.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Eugene, Oregon
7,039 posts, read 2,181,494 times
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I don't think it's been mentioned that there's many on active duty as reserve officers. The highest rank a reserve officer can go, is Lt. Col. (O-5). If reserve Lt. Colonels have been on active duty for 19 years, their active commissions are ended and they have to serve one more year as an enlisted NCO, to qualify for retirement.

When I was in the Army, every now and then, older soldiers would be seen in the headquarters mess hall, wearing SFC stripes and looking isolated and out of place. They usually turned out to be reserve Lt. Colonels, serving out that last year, before retirement. I wonder how many chose not to serve that enlisted year and gave up their military retirement? There was also a requirement when I was in the service, that 16 years had to be served as an officer, to retire as an officer.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:47 AM
 
17,832 posts, read 9,778,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post

An enlisted retired E8/E9 gets something like $2800/$2900 per months and it's taxed. So you're not exactly living large, you'll still need a second career after retirement and good look finding a lucrative career at 40+ in the age of of ageism.
Which has always been the reason why a military retirement plan that paid immediately upon service exit (rather than being withheld until age 65) is both practical and moral.

Otherwise, given that it's for service needs that retention becomes very stiff after 20 years (war is a young man's game after all), a man would be a fool to volunteer to serve 20 years to be shown the door at the peak of his personal family obligations without an income to supplement what a civilian who had been working those 20 years should have accumulated.

Military retirement pay is really something like alimony for a wife who has been divorced by a husband seeking a younger woman.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
13,350 posts, read 42,590,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve McDonald View Post
I don't think it's been mentioned that there's many on active duty as reserve officers. The highest rank a reserve officer can go, is Lt. Col. (O-5). If reserve Lt. Colonels have been on active duty for 19 years, their active commissions are ended and they have to serve one more year as an enlisted NCO, to qualify for retirement.

When I was in the Army, every now and then, older soldiers would be seen in the headquarters mess hall, wearing SFC stripes and looking isolated and out of place. They usually turned out to be reserve Lt. Colonels, serving out that last year, before retirement. I wonder how many chose not to serve that enlisted year and gave up their military retirement? There was also a requirement when I was in the service, that 16 years had to be served as an officer, to retire as an officer.

Unless that last year is just one crap assignment after another, I would think it's a good deal to be able to get the pension. As I understand it, anything short of 20 years, you don't get any pension at all, but with 20, you get half of base pay, COLA adjusted, even.



Is that correct?
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
8,254 posts, read 5,801,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Unless that last year is just one crap assignment after another, I would think it's a good deal to be able to get the pension. As I understand it, anything short of 20 years, you don't get any pension at all, but with 20, you get half of base pay, COLA adjusted, even.



Is that correct?
Well, only about 17% of active duty personnel ultimately stay on long enough to collect a pension.
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