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Old 10-08-2018, 10:51 PM
Status: "Living the good retired life." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Wasilla, AK
5,859 posts, read 3,139,843 times
Reputation: 11824

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
This is not the Air Force's fault. Their hangs get tied by law makers. We can't purchase foreign products for things like this. Often times, needed items go out of production in the United States, and we have to pay a company to create an entire mold for a product, and then make just a handful in production for us. The coffee cups, sure, we could do without those. But, the $10,000 toilet seat? It's a specially made toilet seat and no other seat will work on that particular aircraft. We aren't allowed to outsource, so we have no other choice but to pay those prices. Same with uniforms, they must be manufactured in the United States and we're paying $70 a shirt and $160 for boots when they could be so much less if not produced in US textile mills. At least they are produced in scale, so the prices come down.



When the old honey bucket toilets on our C-130 fleet were declared a biohazard, we simply installed a locally procured porta potty. Total cost was maybe $1,000 for eight aircraft. The best part about it was that it was now a maintenance shop responsibility to service them!
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:37 AM
 
314 posts, read 666,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
^^ As long as the laws changed.

Just one example. We are forced to buy supplies from the Industry for the Blind. Forced. We can only buy office supplies elsewhere if they don't have an item we're looking for. I'm paying 2 or 3 times Office Depot and Walmart prices for paper, post-its, ink, toner, staples, etc, because I can't shop for price comparison.
Here is our local (Army) contracting office's take on that:


"Someone usually points out that you can purchase some items for less money than a JWOD cost – thisis true, but ABILITY ONE is providing jobs for people who may not be employableat regular jobs – they could collect disability insurance, but they work instead – which ends up costing the govt less than the fact that we may pay more for a pen or service – and these people are grateful for the chance towork. These people deserve the opportunity to work – and it is the law."
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:15 AM
 
6,064 posts, read 2,492,570 times
Reputation: 3876
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmarie123 View Post
This is not the Air Force's fault. Their hangs get tied by law makers. We can't purchase foreign products for things like this. Often times, needed items go out of production in the United States, and we have to pay a company to create an entire mold for a product, and then make just a handful in production for us. The coffee cups, sure, we could do without those. But, the $10,000 toilet seat? It's a specially made toilet seat and no other seat will work on that particular aircraft. We aren't allowed to outsource, so we have no other choice but to pay those prices. Same with uniforms, they must be manufactured in the United States and we're paying $70 a shirt and $160 for boots when they could be so much less if not produced in US textile mills. At least they are produced in scale, so the prices come down.
why doesnt the military make the molds and invest in and run CNC machines etc to maintain their own stuff. The miltiary should be able to make all their own parts for their equipment. Why doesnt the military buy the equipment when said part goes out of production?

should we be getting F-22 parts from China? Are you serious?

Its bad enough we get F-35 parts from Australia and South Korea.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:59 AM
 
17,892 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
why doesnt the military make the molds and invest in and run CNC machines etc to maintain their own stuff. The miltiary should be able to make all their own parts for their equipment. Why doesnt the military buy the equipment when said part goes out of production?

should we be getting F-22 parts from China? Are you serious?

Its bad enough we get F-35 parts from Australia and South Korea.
You know the answer to that.

It would "deprive" civilian manufacturers of profit.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:14 AM
 
8,853 posts, read 7,333,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
why doesnt the military make the molds and invest in and run CNC machines etc to maintain their own stuff. The miltiary should be able to make all their own parts for their equipment. Why doesnt the military buy the equipment when said part goes out of production?

should we be getting F-22 parts from China? Are you serious?

Its bad enough we get F-35 parts from Australia and South Korea.
For some equipment and parts you canít just pour in material into a mold. There are pressures, temperatures, specific clean climate controls, and other factors that must be met so the parts can handle the temperatures, pressures, and repeated use. Our ship had a machine shop to make regular parts but some things required too much for them to make those parts and function properly. We used a block of pure silver like a gasket for our main steam pipes. Get one fingerprint on that shiny pure silver and itís worthless for its intended purpose. We used high grade steel for the steam pipes. Our steam system was over 600 psi and over 800 degrees. A pinhole will cut your body part off and cauterize the wound. A major leak killed ten guys on the USS Iwo Jima LPH-2 in October 1990 because someone used the wrong nuts to put together a main steam valve bonnet.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:46 AM
 
6,064 posts, read 2,492,570 times
Reputation: 3876
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
For some equipment and parts you canít just pour in material into a mold. There are pressures, temperatures, specific clean climate controls, and other factors that must be met so the parts can handle the temperatures, pressures, and repeated use. Our ship had a machine shop to make regular parts but some things required too much for them to make those parts and function properly. We used a block of pure silver like a gasket for our main steam pipes. Get one fingerprint on that shiny pure silver and itís worthless for its intended purpose. We used high grade steel for the steam pipes. Our steam system was over 600 psi and over 800 degrees. A pinhole will cut your body part off and cauterize the wound. A major leak killed ten guys on the USS Iwo Jima LPH-2 in October 1990 because someone used the wrong nuts to put together a main steam valve bonnet.
Yep thatís correct, some parts have to be hammer forged, some parts amnealed, some parts nitrided, etc.

But if private sector is getting so greedy and fickle maybe itís time to up your capabilities?

You will likely still be able to get standard an bolts and fittings though. I also started using swagelok for certain things as well, itís ss so itís kinda heavy but for certain things it works great
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Old 10-19-2018, 01:51 PM
 
6,710 posts, read 2,608,873 times
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I don't believe this story, and I don't believe the toilet seat story or the hammer story from decades ago.

They did something with that money that they're not willing to say.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:50 PM
 
17,892 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I don't believe this story, and I don't believe the toilet seat story or the hammer story from decades ago.

They did something with that money that they're not willing to say.
I was there to observe a couple of those things happening. It's a matter of how Congress writes laws to favor contractors and how defense contractors do business to take advantage of it. It does happen.
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:48 PM
 
6,710 posts, read 2,608,873 times
Reputation: 18252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I was there to observe a couple of those things happening. It's a matter of how Congress writes laws to favor contractors and how defense contractors do business to take advantage of it. It does happen.
I'm sorry, Ralph. I don't believe it.

I have worked for the State, and I know how contracts work.

Absolutely NO ONE pays over a thousand bucks for a coffee cup where the handle breaks off typically.

The money is somewhere else. They're keeping it a secret where that money went. We don't know where the money went, but it wasn't for cheap metal coffee cups with fragile handles.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Follow the oil exhaust cloud until you run out of gas, then turn left
778 posts, read 224,082 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Same with uniforms, they must be manufactured in the United States and we're paying $70 a shirt and $160 for boots when they could be so much less if not produced in US textile mills. At least they are produced in scale, so the prices come down.






I can at least vouch for the boots. I can understand paying $160 and it's a pretty normal price since you do get what you pay for. I've worn combat/military boots for many years, some black leather Matterhorn 10" field boots were in fact my go-to motocross boots at a time when I couldn't find traditional MX boots in my size. One summer I had a two-day enduro coming up and once I got there, realized I had stupidly forgotten my boots at home, 400 miles away, and didn't have time or patience to go another 800 miles just for my boots, so I ended up going to a local surplus shop and grabbed some cheapo Chinese "combat" (ha!) boots. They had more-or-less completely fallen apart by the end of day 2. I'd rather pay close to $200 for reliable American made boots that, with normal maintenence, will hold up for at least a good 10 years of daily abuse (enduro racing can be almost as hard on gear as fairly heavy military use, and a career afterwards in construction and then retail isn't that much more forgiving) than double-digits for some Chinese garbage that won't last the weekend.

Anyways, just my $.02.

But $1 grand for a coffee cup is more than just a little suspicious.

Last edited by Ttark; 10-19-2018 at 09:36 PM..
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