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Old 10-09-2018, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
8,470 posts, read 2,857,308 times
Reputation: 5027

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
I am at a loss for words. I just found out that my Nephew, who joined the Army 7 months ago, is on his way to a medical retirement due to hazing. He was conducting training after boot camp at Fort Polk. He and 3 other trainees violated the standing orders of the Staff Sergeant (senior NCO at the time) by walking to the PX last Saturday to get some snacks. The Staff Sergeant had restricted junk food for everyone while in training. As punishment, he ordered the 4 trainees to drink 2 gallons of water, put garbage bags on under their PT uniform, and run until they threw up all of the water. 2 of the 4 threw up right away, and were allowed to return to the barracks. My Nephew and another trainee didn't, so they were ordered to drink another gallon of water and keep running. My nephew went into cardiac arrest 10 minutes later. When he collapsed, the Staff Sergeant thought he was faking and told everyone to stand back. The other trainee ignored him and started CPR. CPR was continued until he was life flighted to a civilian hospital where he was placed on life support. He survived, but not without permanent heart damage. His heart is only moving about half of the blood it should. He is going to undergo some further tests, but right now, it appears that he will need an artificial heart valve, due to severe leakage. He is 19 years old and has congestive heart failure.


The Staff Sergeant has been relieved of duties until a formal investigation is completed. The other trainee was also treated for water toxicity. Because he is 6 foot 4 and 220 lbs, he was able to handle the large amount of water better than my 5 foot 9, 155 lb Nephew.


My Nephew is devastated. I just can't believe that we still have idiots in todays military that think that hazing is OK. Especially those that are in charge of recent enlistees, who want to fit in, and are more likely to go along with hazing. I hope that the Staff Sergeant is Court Martialed.
I am not sure what the procedue is in the US, however in the UK all serious incidents are reported to both the military police and the local civilian police and both will investigate. The Civilian Police are put in charge of any very serious cases such as a homicide or very serious assault, and the military police are subordinate in peace time.

The civilian police can gather evidence and go through the civil court system bypassing the military altogether and there are civilian service courts as well as court martials. Very serious cases will automatically go to the Civilian Crown Courts. This allows for a good amount of civilian oversight.

In terms of military dicipline again there is a lot of oversight, with the Regimental Police or Regimental Provost reportinf to the Provost Sergeant, who operates under the authority of the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM). The RSM has ultimate responsibility for dicipline and wow betide anyone who upsets him, whether a Staff Sergeant or not.

The Regimental Police are trusted members of the corp, and are seperate to the Royal Military Police, they do not carry a warrant card like the RMP, and their role is to merely diciplinary, with all criminal offences being passed to the specialists of the Royal Military Police.



Last edited by Brave New World; 10-09-2018 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Fuquay Varina
4,229 posts, read 6,168,029 times
Reputation: 10026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I am not sure what the procedue is in the US, however in the UK all serious incidents are reported to both the military police and the local civilian police and both will investigate. The Civilian Police are put in charge of any very serious cases such as a homicide or very serious assault, and the military police are subordinate in peace time.

The civilian police can gather evidence and go through the civil court system bypassing the military altogether and there are civilian service courts as well as court martials. Very serious cases will automatically go to the Civilian Crown Courts. This allows for a good amount of civilian oversight.

In terms of military dicipline again there is a lot of oversight, with the Regimental Police or Regimental Provost reportinf to the Provost Sergeant, who operates under the authority of the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM). The RSM has ultimate responsibility for dicipline and wow betide anyone who upsets him, whether a Staff Sergeant or not.

The Regimental Police are trusted members of the corp, and are seperate to the Royal Military Police, they do not carry a warrant card like the RMP, and their role is to merely diciplinary, with all criminal offences being passed to the specialists of the Royal Military Police.


The local police wont be involved officially. The FBI or some gov agency might be brought in if its litigated but if this happened on base its probably Army jurisdiction.

I've been searching but havent read anything about this online. Reaching out to my sis who is stationed there and is an HMCM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Chasing horses and watching circuses in Atropia.
205 posts, read 82,457 times
Reputation: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
First off, I am not a civilian. I am retired Navy. I used the word trainee because that is exactly what my Nephew is. He graduated basic, and is attached to Fort Sam Houston. He was training to be a Combat Medic.
What was he doing at Fort Polk?
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
4,478 posts, read 1,108,432 times
Reputation: 6434
I'm not doubting the story in the OP but it's very likely something like this would've made military news, stripes, army times, etc.

And as already stated, we are only hearing one side of the story.

Having served more than a decade in the Air Force, I've never heard such a bizarre story and you have to understand if I remain skeptical about the specifics of it.

A rogue NCO conducting hazing leading to heart failure (and water toxicity) of trainees? That would be all over military news.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:50 PM
 
6,571 posts, read 2,562,752 times
Reputation: 18006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
I'm not doubting the story in the OP but it's very likely something like this would've made military news, stripes, army times, etc.

And as already stated, we are only hearing one side of the story.

Having served more than a decade in the Air Force, I've never heard such a bizarre story and you have to understand if I remain skeptical about the specifics of it.

A rogue NCO conducting hazing leading to heart failure (and water toxicity) of trainees? That would be all over military news.
No way, Rocko.

I almost can't believe your post, but I do believe you have been in Air Force.

I grew up in the military, and I went to a military school

You have not heard of hazing that left a recruit near death - but not dead - , that was hush hushed?

That would NOT be all over the military news. That story would be buried as soon as possible.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
31,306 posts, read 18,343,761 times
Reputation: 12109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
No way, Rocko.

I almost can't believe your post, but I do believe you have been in Air Force.

I grew up in the military, and I went to a military school

You have not heard of hazing that left a recruit near death - but not dead - , that was hush hushed?

That would NOT be all over the military news. That story would be buried as soon as possible.
when my brother was serving, there were two "recruits" committed suicide. It was never on the news. (maybe the poster meant military news? if this is the case, then maybe he was right. I don't know.)

I believe op's story.

Maybe I am just a dumb civilian and as a dumb civilian, it is very simple to me. If A "discipline" "hazing" "training" (whatever you would like to call it) causes a 19 year old permanent heart damage, that "discipline" "hazing" "training" (whatever you would like to call it) needs to stop. You want to train a soldier, not kill one. It has nothing to do with politics (left vs right, conservative vs liberals) either.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:00 PM
 
6,571 posts, read 2,562,752 times
Reputation: 18006
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
when my brother was serving, there were two "recruits" committed suicide. It was never on the news.

So I believe op's story.

Maybe I am just a dumb civilian and as a dumb civilian, it is very simple to me. If A "discipline" "hazing" "training" (whatever you would like to call it) causes a 19 year old permanent heart damage, that "discipline" "hazing" "training" (whatever you would like to call it) needs to stop. You want to train a soldier, not kill one. It has nothing to do with politics either.
For the most part, I agree with you.

But I also don't think you can't create a soldier who will go marching into his death on orders if you don't break their brains in boot camp. You have to break the brains of young men and young women, to make them do the stuff you force them to do in combat.

And with that, comes silencing the information of those who are almost dead, but not quite, in training.

And then, when they return from battle you have to hush hush how many are completely broken, or are in fact dead from suicide, so you can recruit the next batch of young men/women to serve.

Because if the truth were told of how many in the military are completely broken/dead/suicidal no one would allow their sons and daughters to sign up for the military plan to get insurance and the possibility of job security.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
31,306 posts, read 18,343,761 times
Reputation: 12109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
For the most part, I agree with you.

But I also don't think you can't create a soldier who will go marching into his death on orders if you don't break their brains in boot camp. You have to break the brains of young men and young women, to make them do the stuff you force them to do in combat.

And with that, comes silencing the information of those who are almost dead, but not quite, in training.

And then, when they return from battle you have to hush hush how many are completely broken, or are in fact dead from suicide, so you can recruit the next batch of young men/women to serve.

Because if the truth were told of how many in the military are completely broken/dead/suicidal no one would allow their sons and daughters to sign up for the military plan to get insurance and the possibility of job security.
Like I posted earlier,

As a CIVILIAN, I have to ASSUME that Generally speaking, military professionals know how to discipline troops to build them up rather than break them down. Just as importantly, a military professional can weed out the weak men from the strong so they do not hurt their unit. Neither process requires "hazing" to cause people permanent heart damage. (causing people permanent heart damage = crossing the line)
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Hawaii/Alabama
1,591 posts, read 2,958,517 times
Reputation: 3965
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTLightning View Post
The local police wont be involved officially. The FBI or some gov agency might be brought in if its litigated but if this happened on base its probably Army jurisdiction.

I've been searching but havent read anything about this online. Reaching out to my sis who is stationed there and is an HMCM.
I, too have been looking for information regarding this incident. Most likely it is being investigated by either MPI or CID as there has been enough time to have passed for some information to be disseminated.

OP - DH was on the trail eons ago and he is very interested in this incident; do you have a link that he can read that could give more in depth information?

I am sorry that your nephew has been injured; this type of incident should have never happened.

Last edited by melaniej65; 10-10-2018 at 12:20 AM.. Reason: stupidity
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:13 AM
 
Location: NJ
9,049 posts, read 20,141,077 times
Reputation: 6058
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
I am at a loss for words. I just found out that my Nephew, who joined the Army 7 months ago, is on his way to a medical retirement due to hazing. He was conducting training after boot camp at Fort Polk. He and 3 other trainees violated the standing orders of the Staff Sergeant (senior NCO at the time) by walking to the PX last Saturday to get some snacks. The Staff Sergeant had restricted junk food for everyone while in training. As punishment, he ordered the 4 trainees to drink 2 gallons of water, put garbage bags on under their PT uniform, and run until they threw up all of the water. 2 of the 4 threw up right away, and were allowed to return to the barracks. My Nephew and another trainee didn't, so they were ordered to drink another gallon of water and keep running. My nephew went into cardiac arrest 10 minutes later. When he collapsed, the Staff Sergeant thought he was faking and told everyone to stand back. The other trainee ignored him and started CPR. CPR was continued until he was life flighted to a civilian hospital where he was placed on life support. He survived, but not without permanent heart damage. His heart is only moving about half of the blood it should. He is going to undergo some further tests, but right now, it appears that he will need an artificial heart valve, due to severe leakage. He is 19 years old and has congestive heart failure.


The Staff Sergeant has been relieved of duties until a formal investigation is completed. The other trainee was also treated for water toxicity. Because he is 6 foot 4 and 220 lbs, he was able to handle the large amount of water better than my 5 foot 9, 155 lb Nephew.


My Nephew is devastated. I just can't believe that we still have idiots in todays military that think that hazing is OK. Especially those that are in charge of recent enlistees, who want to fit in, and are more likely to go along with hazing. I hope that the Staff Sergeant is Court Martialed.
My heart breaks for your nephew. Will say some prayers for him and your family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
For the most part, I agree with you.

But I also don't think you can't create a soldier who will go marching into his death on orders if you don't break their brains in boot camp. You have to break the brains of young men and young women, to make them do the stuff you force them to do in combat.

And with that, comes silencing the information of those who are almost dead, but not quite, in training.

And then, when they return from battle you have to hush hush how many are completely broken, or are in fact dead from suicide, so you can recruit the next batch of young men/women to serve.

Because if the truth were told of how many in the military are completely broken/dead/suicidal no one would allow their sons and daughters to sign up for the military plan to get insurance and the possibility of job security.
I'm the daughter of Hungarian immigrants, the 1st generation Hungarian born in the US so I don't have family that was in our military. My dad was a freedom fighter in Hungary that defected. He refused to discuss whatever happened there.

I did live near Fort Dix/ McGuire Air force Base from 1993 until 2008; where my kids friends grew up without a parent due to the military. The lowest point was around 1996 when my neighbor had her daughter, her hub was serving in Japan I believe. I believe he was a cook and that he did something with remains. The baby had heart issues, they did not think she was going to make it; they would not allow him to come home to be with his wife and daughter. It really left a bad taste in my mouth

Years later (2004 to 2008) I was a mod on Maximum PC Magazine's forum and went to a few other computer forums, we had a lot of military guys; a few that had gotten hurt in battle; one with a shrapnel brain injury. The military treated the brain injured one pretty rotten until he decided to retire and seek better treatment for his injury. It was pretty typical that once someone was injured they had no military support.

My only son wanted to join. He was being pursued by head hunters from high school until about 4 years later. I don't recall why he never joined but I'm thankful he did not after my experience with neighbors and knowing people online

My son has friends that enlisted and served in some pretty hard times, some of them injured. I'd have to ask for specific numbers and whether any of his friends died. I'm just thankful he never went in; especially when I read posts like this one here. There are heart issues on my son's fathers side. It's possible he never would have been accepted anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
First off, I am not a civilian. I am retired Navy. I used the word trainee because that is exactly what my Nephew is. He graduated basic, and is attached to Fort Sam Houston. He was training to be a Combat Medic. He hasn't graduated his A school, hence my usage of the word trainee. In the Navy, when someone was striking a new rating, they were called a trainee until they graduated and earned their new rating. I don't know what the Army calls a greenhorn straight out of boot.


I also don't need to know the specific training being conducted to know that this was nothing more than hazing. If someone violates the standing orders, you punish them by making them stand additional watches, take away liberty, give them additional collateral duties. You don't order them to drink a bunch of water until they go into cardiac arrest. Was there a lack of judgment, absolutely. That being said, NCO's in charge of recruits, and recent graduates, have to be held to a higher standard. This was an abuse of power. Here is the definition of hazing per the DOD.


Any conduct through which a military member or members, or a Department of Defense civilian employee or employees, without proper military or other governmental purpose but with a nexus to military service or Department of Defense civilian employment, physically or psychologically injure or create a risk of physical or psychological injury to one or more military members, Department of Defense civilian employees, or any other persons for the purpose of initiation into, admission into, affiliation with, change in status or position within, or as a condition for continued membership in any military or Department of Defense civilian organization.




For the comment that this may have been preexisting, that has already been ruled out. The Cardiologist that is treating him has already determined that the death of heart tissue was caused by lack of oxygen, which was caused by cardiac arrest due to water toxicity. The only variable right now is if he will need an artificial heart valve. As of today, he has a significant leakage at the valve that brings the blood in from the artery. Because of this, blood is leaking back out, severely affecting blood flow.


Right now my Nephew is in shock, and denial. He is hoping that the leakage will go away and he will be able to go back to active duty.
I hope that by some miracle his heart heals and he can continue on in the military since it sounds like his dream. I hope they prosecute the sergeant to the full extent of the law so this doesn't happen again. In this day and age we know the dangers of too much water.
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