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Old 10-29-2018, 04:29 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
4,613 posts, read 1,153,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
When did the Air Force start retaining people who had been demoted? When I was active, such a person was "disinvited" to re-enlist.
It depends on the individual commander and the infraction. A demotion is not automatic grounds for a commander to not sign off on your re-enlistment. An article 15 demotion is considered small beans (and goes away after a couple years) compared to an actual court martial conviction.

Especially when commanders are known to give the rank back once the Airmen shows they learned from their lesson. I’ve seen folks lose rank over DUI and get it back within a year.

If it was that easy to get out of an enlistment, everyone would try getting in trouble.
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:33 AM
 
17,927 posts, read 9,854,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
It depends on the individual commander and the infraction. A demotion is not automatic grounds for a commander to not sign off on your re-enlistment. An article 15 demotion is considered small beans (and goes away after a couple years) compared to an actual court martial conviction.

Especially when commanders are known to give the rank back once the Airmen shows they learned from their lesson. I’ve seen folks lose rank over DUI and get it back within a year.

If it was that easy to get out of an enlistment, everyone would try getting in trouble.
The Article 15 record is destroyed when the airman leaves the unit, not just "after a couple of years."

So, yeah, if he leaves the unit before re-enlisting, he's likely safe, although the actions that led to the Article 15 can and should have been entered into his performance report and thus will still be part of his permanent record.

If folks are being given back their stripes by local commanders, then that is, indeed, a different Air Force than the one I knew. I don't think any other service actually "gives back" rank--I think they still have to earn it back by regular promotion.
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Old 10-29-2018, 09:53 AM
 
320 posts, read 667,618 times
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Back when I was in, the HYT for SSgt (E5) was 20. I seen a few people retire at 20 as a SSgt. I always wondered about just how "good" these people were, and whether they should have been allowed to stay until retirement if they couldn't get promoted to E6. The most common excuse I heard given was "they just don't test well". I can't say whether that was a valid excuse or not, I always thought that perhaps more of a matter that they did not study, or did not adequately study for their promotion tests. Most of these people would also say they did not want to get promoted, as they didn't want the added responsibility, and were happy being a "lower level" worker. I always thought that was just an excuse they made so people would not think poorly of them (e.g. he's not dumb, it's just he doesn't want to be promoted). Having said all of that, my view of these people changed after I retired, and then worked with some of them post retirement. I learned that, at least the ones I worked with, they were very competent workers. I even know one of them who is a GS-13 now with the Air Force. So while it would seem these people could not get promoted while in uniform, they seemed to do okay once you remove the promotion test from the equation, and let them compete for positions on their knowledge, skills and abilities.
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Old 10-29-2018, 10:42 AM
 
17,927 posts, read 9,854,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TowBar View Post
Back when I was in, the HYT for SSgt (E5) was 20. I seen a few people retire at 20 as a SSgt. I always wondered about just how "good" these people were, and whether they should have been allowed to stay until retirement if they couldn't get promoted to E6. The most common excuse I heard given was "they just don't test well". I can't say whether that was a valid excuse or not, I always thought that perhaps more of a matter that they did not study, or did not adequately study for their promotion tests. Most of these people would also say they did not want to get promoted, as they didn't want the added responsibility, and were happy being a "lower level" worker. I always thought that was just an excuse they made so people would not think poorly of them (e.g. he's not dumb, it's just he doesn't want to be promoted). Having said all of that, my view of these people changed after I retired, and then worked with some of them post retirement. I learned that, at least the ones I worked with, they were very competent workers. I even know one of them who is a GS-13 now with the Air Force. So while it would seem these people could not get promoted while in uniform, they seemed to do okay once you remove the promotion test from the equation, and let them compete for positions on their knowledge, skills and abilities.
As I told my airmen who suggested, "Why can't I be promoted just on my job performance?":

Your job performance is only what your supervisor says it is, and you've got very little recourse if your supervisor doesn't have his or her head screwed on right.

It's still 'way too easy for a supervisor to shove a screwdriver up your butt and twist, and that probably can't be corrected.

The promotion test is a very valuable factor for the airman. It's the only factor that the airman himself has direct ability to improve.

When I went into service, the standardized promotion testing system was only a few years old. My elders told me how the system used to work: Each unit got the number of people they could promote in each grade, and the commander and Shirt huddled and decided who they should be.

That system sure sucked.

I had the marvelous opportunity to serve on the team that updated the skill tests for my AFSC one year. It was great, and after that experience I have absolute faith in the Air Force test creation process. The process is rock solid and produces good tests.

This is the basic philosophy on which the tests are created: "If you studied, you are supposed to score high; if you didn't study you are not supposed to score high."

Every question is answered in the study materials. Every year they go over every question and look at how airmen did on that particular question that previous year and in the years before. They also look at how the question has been modified over the years. Every year they also develop thirty new questions.

Basically, people who scored overall in the upper half should have gotten any given question right. People who scored overall in the lower have should have gotten any given question wrong.

There is a test psychologist assigned to every team whose first job is to make sure there are no "trick" questions slipped into the test. If an airman actually knows the information, there is not supposed to be any question to trick him into a wrong answer.

If you have a question that most people who otherwise scored in the upper half got wrong, then there is something wrong with that particular question. It's tricking the people who studied.

Contrariwise, if there is a particular question that most people who otherwise scored in the lower half got right, there's something wrong with that question. It's somehow giving away the correct answer to people who didn't study.

Also, you know those job surveys where you identify all the specific AFSC tasks that you actually accomplish at your duty station? Those surveys are used every year in the test updates. The test questions must refer to tasks in the proportion that airmen in the field are actually performing them.

So if five percent of airmen are performing a particular task, the test can have no more than five questions about that task. If fifty percent of airmen in the field are performing a particular task, the test can have fifty questions about that task.

We spend two weeks on the test for each grade, and when we think we're done, we take the test ourselves...and then go back into revisions, because we always find them.

The test is a good test. The answers are in the study materials. There aren't any trick questions. It's designed for people who know the material to do well.
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:47 AM
 
320 posts, read 667,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post

The test is a good test. The answers are in the study materials. There aren't any trick questions. It's designed for people who know the material to do well.
I never had any issues with the tests myself. I usually did well, even though I didn't study as much as I should have. I made SSgt from the first time testing, made TSgt in less than 10, and made MSgt in less than 15. That's why I had a hard time understanding those who got stuck as SSgt. To me the tests weren't hard, but it certainly helped to know your job, and the basic military stuff asked on the PFE.
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Wasilla, AK
5,886 posts, read 3,157,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
It depends on the individual commander and the infraction. A demotion is not automatic grounds for a commander to not sign off on your re-enlistment. An article 15 demotion is considered small beans (and goes away after a couple years) compared to an actual court martial conviction.

Especially when commanders are known to give the rank back once the Airmen shows they learned from their lesson. I’ve seen folks lose rank over DUI and get it back within a year.

If it was that easy to get out of an enlistment, everyone would try getting in trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The Article 15 record is destroyed when the airman leaves the unit, not just "after a couple of years."

So, yeah, if he leaves the unit before re-enlisting, he's likely safe, although the actions that led to the Article 15 can and should have been entered into his performance report and thus will still be part of his permanent record.

If folks are being given back their stripes by local commanders, then that is, indeed, a different Air Force than the one I knew. I don't think any other service actually "gives back" rank--I think they still have to earn it back by regular promotion.

I'm here to tell you that those Article 15s can haunt you for the rest of your life. I'm retired LE and when I did nationwide background checks on NLETS I've seen Article 15 convictions show up. In fact, that church shooting in Texas a few years ago resulted in a lawsuit because the Air Force did not forward a DV Article 15 conviction for the shooter. Had they done so, it would have been entered into NCIC and the shooter would have not been able to purchase a firearm. I imagine the Air Force has fixed that problem by now and all Article 15 convictions now go to NCIC, as well as any court martial convictions. LE uses all prior convictions when classifying prisoners to determine their custody level. All criminal convictions are used to arrive at a classification score, including military convictions.
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Old 10-29-2018, 11:53 AM
 
17,927 posts, read 9,854,361 times
Reputation: 17420
Quote:
Originally Posted by TowBar View Post
I never had any issues with the tests myself. I usually did well, even though I didn't study as much as I should have. I made SSgt from the first time testing, made TSgt in less than 10, and made MSgt in less than 15. That's why I had a hard time understanding those who got stuck as SSgt. To me the tests weren't hard, but it certainly helped to know your job, and the basic military stuff asked on the PFE.
I had a couple of such people, two in particular that I fondly remember as some of my top-notch workers, smart, hardworking airmen I could task and forget and come back later to find the job done well and complete, airmen who were constantly improving the process.

Yet they couldn't seem to do well on the test. One took the 15-year retirement (which hurt--that guy even impressed flag officers with his acumen), the other went to 20.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:13 PM
 
1,937 posts, read 1,328,419 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
What is now a Senior Airman once was once a Sergeant in the US Air Force. It was pay grade E-4.

The rank of Sergeant existed in the U.S. Army before the US Air Force existed.

Pay grade E-4 in the Army is usually rank of Corporal or Specialist...

Currently the Pay grade E-5 in the Army is the rank of Sergeant. At one time it could also have been the Rank of Specialist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialist_(rank)

It was possibly changed to eliminate some confusion?
The Senior Airman was ALSO an E-4, like the buck sergeant. Until he/she went to school to qualify for NCO status.
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Old 10-29-2018, 09:12 PM
Status: "I can retire today...but I love my job so...." (set 28 days ago)
 
Location: USA
561 posts, read 199,608 times
Reputation: 1556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
Save your breath. It's wasted air anyway with these words. Starting with... who runs the military? Not the military at the political level. Then you posit this is a covert military expansion - no..... this is probably a program to let lesser achievers stay in longer and get that retirement check. Could be multiple reasons for it... none of them good. And all of them smelling like bleeding heart ideas.

Big business? LOL! Try again. It is always fun though, to listen to liberals advance theories explaining EVERYTHING as an example of evil capitalism.
Funny how “Big Education” is seemingly ignored by those who dislike big business and capitalism.
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
4,613 posts, read 1,153,147 times
Reputation: 6614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The Article 15 record is destroyed when the airman leaves the unit, not just "after a couple of years."
Nope. I had an article 15 on record even after I left my unit. If you PCS in the middle of EPR season the new command will decide who writes the EPR. But they will still see the article 15 on your record regardless.

If it was “destroyed” then hell everyone would get in trouble before PCS’ing. No, it goes in your UIF where the new commander will see it very clearly and use it as a basis to make you promotion ineligible for the year, regardless if the article 15 is listed on the EPR

I PCS’d with an article 15 and it haunted me, couldn’t promote for an extra year because it was on record even though there was no mention of it on my EPR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
So, yeah, if he leaves the unit before re-enlisting, he's likely safe, although the actions that led to the Article 15 can and should have been entered into his performance report and thus will still be part of his permanent record.
It’s up to the command/supervisor to decide if the Article 15 will go on the EPR, mine didn’t. But it will show up somewhere on his record whether that’s a UIF or PIF.

Again, Article 15s don’t get “destroyed” or “go away” just because you PCS or just because it’s not on the EPR. It takes time to “fall off” and that’s only if it was something minor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
If folks are being given back their stripes by local commanders, then that is, indeed, a different Air Force than the one I knew. I don't think any other service actually "gives back" rank--I think they still have to earn it back by regular promotion.
This is a new Air Force that’s struggling to meet its quotas, getting back your rank is no longer uncommon. Especially for a service member who clearly had an outlier incident.

The Air Force can no longer risk kicking people out because they hit high year tenure due to a demotion. If a 10 or 8 year E5 gets demoted, they hit high year tenure and get separation pay with an honorable discharge. The Air Force just put a stop to that loophole.

Last edited by Rocko20; Yesterday at 03:44 PM..
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