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Old 01-01-2019, 04:34 PM
 
13,745 posts, read 12,595,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
The Marines are a ground force like the Army. How can they deviate any further from the Navy? Also personnel wise, the Air Force is not significantly larger than the Marines. You can just as easily make air force part of Dept of Army, and they will intermingle.
Lol, they are not a ground force like the Army. If that was the logic, then you can say every single function of the branches should be its own department. Navy SEALs? Hey, its own department. Navy security forces? Hey, its own department. USAF PJ's? Its own department. Navy submarine forces? Its own department.

The Marines are a function of the Navy, they are integrated with the Navy and its mission. They deploy on ships, they play a security role on many bases, they are intermingled quite heavily in the Navy as they are part of the Navy. Marines main role is integrated deployed with the Navy, the Army does not do this.

I am guessing the Marines being its own branch is causing confusion on its role, but you could say why have the SEALs as part of the Navy when there is for example Delta Force, SO, PJ's, etc. And why not just the Army have all of these? The SEALs for the last almost 20 years now, have deployed almost exclusively deep inland.

Edit: you can also look at US Navy aircraft, and ask "why does the USAF just not do it?"

Last edited by boxus; 01-01-2019 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 01-01-2019, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,260 posts, read 5,069,518 times
Reputation: 7918
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
They should just go off base to a civilian establishment. If they dont want to spend money than just make a mini golf or a teeing range. A whole golf course takes a lot of space.

There are a few things I can see in your point of view and I believe it is one that does not believe in supporting the troops.


HOWEVER, let me illustrate another factor in this matter.


THE HARDER YOU LET THEM PLAY, THE HARDER THEY WILL FIGHT.
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Old 01-01-2019, 08:32 PM
 
13,745 posts, read 12,595,612 times
Reputation: 18707
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
They should just go off base to a civilian establishment. If they dont want to spend money than just make a mini golf or a teeing range. A whole golf course takes a lot of space.
It is their space to do what they like with.

I am not understanding your infatuation with this, you act like there is some mysterious constraint on space on a base, and the golf courses are the reason.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:34 AM
 
5,716 posts, read 5,917,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Lol, they are not a ground force like the Army. If that was the logic, then you can say every single function of the branches should be its own department. Navy SEALs? Hey, its own department. Navy security forces? Hey, its own department. USAF PJ's? Its own department. Navy submarine forces? Its own department.

The Marines are a function of the Navy, they are integrated with the Navy and its mission. They deploy on ships, they play a security role on many bases, they are intermingled quite heavily in the Navy as they are part of the Navy. Marines main role is integrated deployed with the Navy, the Army does not do this.

I am guessing the Marines being its own branch is causing confusion on its role, but you could say why have the SEALs as part of the Navy when there is for example Delta Force, SO, PJ's, etc. And why not just the Army have all of these? The SEALs for the last almost 20 years now, have deployed almost exclusively deep inland.

Edit: you can also look at US Navy aircraft, and ask "why does the USAF just not do it?"
Actually all special force can just be its own Dept or why not just have the Intelligence apparatus do all the special forces missions. And I dont mean elite units, but the ones that take on the "special assignments". Like Green Berets, why not just make that part of Intelligence agency? When Navy Seals went in to assassinate OBL, the Intelligence apparatus can do that.

There are Marine Units deep in Afghanistan, a landlocked country. What does Navy have to do with that? There are Marines Units deep in Iraq far away from water. That has nothing to do with Navy? In WW2, sure the island hopping worked, but the D-Day landing was all Army, and they worked with Navy. And prior to 1933 and the creation of the fleet marine force, Naval Personnel took part in many land battles like during Banana Wars, and the Tampico Affair. And I mean navy sailors, not marines, the guys rowing the boats and hoisting sales.

I always did think the Air force should have its own carriers, or at least be able operate from Navy's carriers.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:42 AM
 
5,716 posts, read 5,917,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
There are a few things I can see in your point of view and I believe it is one that does not believe in supporting the troops.


HOWEVER, let me illustrate another factor in this matter.


THE HARDER YOU LET THEM PLAY, THE HARDER THEY WILL FIGHT.
We should just pay the soldiers more, and then they can play harder while spending that money back into the economy off base
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Wasilla, AK
6,410 posts, read 3,492,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
We should just pay the soldiers more, and then they can play harder while spending that money back into the economy off base

You seem to have a real hangup about golf courses on military bases.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:18 AM
 
18,783 posts, read 10,336,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
Actually all special force can just be its own Dept or why not just have the Intelligence apparatus do all the special forces missions. And I dont mean elite units, but the ones that take on the "special assignments". Like Green Berets, why not just make that part of Intelligence agency? When Navy Seals went in to assassinate OBL, the Intelligence apparatus can do that.
Actually there already is the Joint Special Forces Command.

But, no, special force operations are not an intelligence function (and I say this as a career intelligence analyst). Although Special Forces operations frequently collect intelligence, their real function is to kill people and break things.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,260 posts, read 5,069,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
We should just pay the soldiers more, and then they can play harder while spending that money back into the economy off base
That sort of sounds great in theory, sort of, but a thing or two.

A: We have another thread going about scams against military personnel and I have seen a scam like this set up outside of military "bases". Company sets up an athletic club, they bring you in, have you sign a 2-4 year contract. They turn right around and sell your contract to someone else. They get their money and the club is often closed for "improvements" or that it was sold to new owners...and new owners....and new owners. All the while, the customer is still paying for services not rendered.

At least with facilities on a base, you know it is going to be open when you come back from a deployment or an exercise or from the field. I miss the time when bases had stables for horse riding is a heck of a rise!

B: An unfortunate thing is that many of the young don't know much of R&R except playing video games (that was in the late 80s, I imagine it is a lot worse now). Supplying the money path from the individual to a company is only going to support what makes bucks. It will build arcades, not (honest) gyms. It will feed a population that cares about money and not the soldier.

C: Say you are the USS Virginia and you need help for your recreation fund. One of the ways is to contact the State of Virginia to see about raising funds that way. This is getting the public involved in their boat (ship), behind the sailors, generating the comraderie and is probably more beneficial to the country than just money going from the hands of the individual to the economy.

Another example? I can just imagine how this boosted morale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
Actually all special force can just be its own Dept or why not just have the Intelligence apparatus do all the special forces missions. And I dont mean elite units, but the ones that take on the "special assignments". Like Green Berets, why not just make that part of Intelligence agency? When Navy Seals went in to assassinate OBL, the Intelligence apparatus can do that.

There are Marine Units deep in Afghanistan, a landlocked country. What does Navy have to do with that? There are Marines Units deep in Iraq far away from water. That has nothing to do with Navy? In WW2, sure the island hopping worked, but the D-Day landing was all Army, and they worked with Navy. And prior to 1933 and the creation of the fleet marine force, Naval Personnel took part in many land battles like during Banana Wars, and the Tampico Affair. And I mean navy sailors, not marines, the guys rowing the boats and hoisting sales.

I always did think the Air force should have its own carriers, or at least be able operate from Navy's carriers.
I don't think you quite understand what it means to be in the military, nor, for that matter, the difference between "units".

Reminds me of an end analysis said in the last century, "SEALS are great, but there are just some things you would rather do with a MAB."

Small units are wonderful, but a military unit of manpower is incredible. On a different focus, have a city taken out by a hurricane? Bring in a carrier or a LHA and watch what can be done.

One of the things about putting military units under civilian intelligence is that often, there is no loyalty. They can be sacrificed in the blink of a political eye and given that secrecy, without accountability.

This is one of the great things about the Marine Corps in that they essentially know each other. The F/A-18 bringing in CAS for the platoon on the ground may indeed know that leader or at least knows what he is going through for they all go through The Basic School, TBS, first.

Further, as military, there are families at home wondering what happened to their kin and sooner or later, they will get those answers, one way or another. To say nothing of the differences in protections between being military.....and being a spy.

The D Day land was hardly all Army.........just ask the sailors on the USS Texas.

About landing on the carrier. Landing on a carrier is a controlled crash. The pilot is slamming down that aircraft.

However, to explain the difference between the carrier (Navy) and the runway (Air Force), permit to provide for your reading education, the TFX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFX_Program and the F-111 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...F-111_Aardvark .

Last edited by TamaraSavannah; 01-04-2019 at 09:42 AM..
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:06 AM
 
1,491 posts, read 2,223,236 times
Reputation: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
Actually all special force can just be its own Dept or why not just have the Intelligence apparatus do all the special forces missions. And I dont mean elite units, but the ones that take on the "special assignments". Like Green Berets, why not just make that part of Intelligence agency? When Navy Seals went in to assassinate OBL, the Intelligence apparatus can do that.

There are Marine Units deep in Afghanistan, a landlocked country. What does Navy have to do with that? There are Marines Units deep in Iraq far away from water. That has nothing to do with Navy? In WW2, sure the island hopping worked, but the D-Day landing was all Army, and they worked with Navy. And prior to 1933 and the creation of the fleet marine force, Naval Personnel took part in many land battles like during Banana Wars, and the Tampico Affair. And I mean navy sailors, not marines, the guys rowing the boats and hoisting sales.

I always did think the Air force should have its own carriers, or at least be able operate from Navy's carriers.
I think you need to look up how COCOMs operate and it will answer all of your questions.
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Old 01-05-2019, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,087 posts, read 8,275,545 times
Reputation: 11486
"Up in the air, Junior Birdmen...." I went to college in the Springs, but it wasn't the Air Force Academy. We did play lacrosse against them, though...and lost, big.
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