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Old 04-05-2019, 10:14 PM
 
14,669 posts, read 13,047,583 times
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Seems the definition has not been defined.

"Hazing", as it was before all this criminal conduct appeared in the spotlight, was simple, non-official initiation of some sorts, due to some event a person or group went through. I got my Dolphins tacked on, my crow tacked on, Chief initiation (hazing) was canceled due to the war. Hazing builds camaraderie which is pretty important among groups, builds upon relationships people have being together.

A lot of you seem to think hazing is only the basically criminal conduct you see in the news, which is far from it. Hazing can be criminal of course, as can many other actions humans engage in.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:34 PM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
24,955 posts, read 40,585,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Seems the definition has not been defined.

"Hazing", as it was before all this criminal conduct appeared in the spotlight, was simple, non-official initiation of some sorts, due to some event a person or group went through. I got my Dolphins tacked on, my crow tacked on, Chief initiation (hazing) was canceled due to the war. Hazing builds camaraderie which is pretty important among groups, builds upon relationships people have being together.

A lot of you seem to think hazing is only the basically criminal conduct you see in the news, which is far from it. Hazing can be criminal of course, as can many other actions humans engage in.
It was defined, http://www.city-data.com/forum/54849523-post2.html
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
That was a fairly useless definition. That's like saying combat is everything from a game of checkers to the Single Integrated Operational Plan.
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:50 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
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Hazing in the Armed Forces
7-5700August 9, 2018


https://fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IF10948.pdf
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Old 04-06-2019, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
32,551 posts, read 19,572,461 times
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According to the article the poster posted,

Hazing: A form of harassment that includes conduct
through which service members or DOD
employees, without a proper military or other
governmental purpose but with a nexus to
military service, physically or psychologically
injure or create a risk of physical or
psychological injury to service members for
the purpose of: initiation into, admission into,
affiliation with, change in status or position
within, or a condition for continued
membership in any military or DoD civilian
organization.


If this is the official definition of hazing, then even the gold wing pinning ceremony should be categorized as hazing because it has no proper military or other governmental purpose.

In military and government's eyes, any types of Hazing would be bad. This makes perfect sense.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
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No, there is no benefit to having. It is stupid, counterproductive and undermines esprit de corps, good order, and discipline. As I approach 20 years in the Marine Corps my tolerance for hazing gets smaller with every passing day. When I was young I just sort of thought “this is just how it is.” As my experience in the service grew I began to realize how unproductive hazing really was. As an “adult” Marine now I have zero sympathy for those who get drummed out over hazing.

I value tough and realistic training. I value corective discipline designed to specifically address an area of weakness. I value creating stressful conditions to push the limits on a unit and individual’s toughness (goes back to realistic training). I have no use at all for stupid s*** and the idiots who engage in it. Hazing divides a unit. It creates an “us vs them” dynamic WITHIN the unit. That’s not something you want when these are the guys you’re supposed to be next to in combat with an actual enemy. I don’t care how many decorations a service member may have, if he’s guilty of hazing he can GTFO of the service with whatever punitive discharge the court is content to award.

Also, seeing some of the Navy members’ comments here reinforce why I’m Marine and would not have likely succeeded in the Navy. The Navy maintains a few traditions that are acceptable that I strongly disagree with. Ward room entry being one of them. If I’m on your ship and I pay ward room dues, I don’t need permission from the senior officer present to join the mess. My permission was granted when the ship cashed in my ward room dues. Still, I played the game and did what was expected. But that’s a minor thing compared to the Shellback or the afore mentioned chief initiation.

Shellback seems to be a somewhat time honored tradition that is still widely accepted in the Navy. But every time I read the SECNAVINST definition of hazing the Shellback ceremony is the first thing that comes to mind. How they are allowed to do it is past my ability to reconcile. I understand it to be voluntary. I’ve met plenty of sailors who’ll tel you “oh yeah it’s voluntary but if you want to be a real ‘member of the crew’ you’ll ‘volunteer.’ Otherwise you’re ostricised.” So there’s divisiveness involved, or at least the perception of. That alone seems to undermine the leadership aboard the ship of this is the perception they’ve allowed to persist under their command.

And don’t even get me started on the TAD for a shore side Chiefs initiation. That may be a thing in the Navy and accepted within that service. I’d blow the fraud waste and abuse whistle on that if the Navy was spending all that TAD money to “initiate” newly promoted Chiefs. Again, acceptable in the Navy and an example of why I’m glad I went Marine Corps.
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Old 04-07-2019, 11:45 AM
 
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I do not disagree with your post (iknowftbll), I do have some sort of feeling, whatever it is, about removing every single non-official thing in the military. They blast it is a lifestyle, a way of life, teamwork, camaraderie, etc, etc, and you are not going to have these things in any organization without having a degree of non-official, initiation rights type things occur, humans just do not operate that way.

I was in through the 90's to early 2000's, and experienced the transition from the numerous, non-official hazing/ritual type things, starting with the soft things like when and where to have a beer, to the more hard stuff like the tacking on "ceremony". But at the end, felt the entire thing was more robot in nature than it being a "lifestyle" and something I suppose to emerge myself in. This was also the time they started hyping up the whole "we are a professional organization,w e act like professionals" though to this day, being a "professional", I have yet scrubbed an area for three hours for field day, or did any number of useless activities I engaged in because "we cannot just have people sitting around".

But a lot of the military is just one large hazing ritual, making it official or not does not change that. They did away with the chief's initiation stuff, but making official would have all of a suddenly make it ok? Ridiculous notion.

I do got some mixed feelings, on one hand I rather despise traditions of any sorts (traditions meaning everything from hazing, to official ceremonies), and the Navy was full of the BS, on the other hand, I do enjoy the entertaining traditions, especially those I feel build upon relationships with others.
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Old 04-07-2019, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Murrica
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You must also consider whether the hazing is attempting to enforce a positive/desired outcome or is being done by the malcontents who want a good person to be like them.

And whoever said hazing doesn't exist anymore should read up on the issue. The University of Texas had a hazing death in one of their most elite groups. https://abc13.com/ut-suspends-texas-...death/5221659/
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Old 04-07-2019, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,576 posts, read 5,277,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1a1mg View Post
You must also consider whether the hazing is attempting to enforce a positive/desired outcome .........
Well one of the catches is .......... what if the target does not respond in the way you expect them to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
No, there is no benefit to having. It is stupid, counterproductive and undermines esprit de corps, good order, and discipline. As I approach 20 years in the Marine Corps my tolerance for hazing gets smaller with every passing day. When I was young I just sort of thought “this is just how it is.” As my experience in the service grew I began to realize how unproductive hazing really was. As an “adult” Marine now I have zero sympathy for those who get drummed out over hazing.
..........
An interesting prospective.

The wild and crazy thing is that in my NROTC experience, it was often the Marine candidates who were doing it to me.

But, oh well, that's TAMU for you.
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Old 04-07-2019, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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I never figured out the benefit to packing my colon with lithium grease, but as a teenager that was the initiation that was expected at the command where I was sent [1975].
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