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Old 04-07-2019, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
32,551 posts, read 19,572,461 times
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In the kinder gentler world we live in, a lot of things that were tradition have been eliminated as barbaric practice.

From a personal perspective, rites of passage are a part of life. That right of passage is going to involve misery, pain, suffering, and fatigue. The purpose of a rite of passage is not the amusement of others, but persevering over those hardships to become an integral part of the group.

So I understand the message of something like gold wing pinning ceremony. Is it necessary? Of course it is not. But do I think people go through it need to be demonized or stopped? not necessarily. Rituals build bonds of trust between group members, as they frequently require a public declaration of an inner commitment. Like I said, it is NOT necessary, but I understand why it exists.

My brother and many of his friends, and many of my own friends went through gold wing pinning ceremony or something similar to that, I'd say majority of them have put their military career behind, but they still hold the ceremony they went through dear to their heart. As a civilian, I will never understand it because I've never gone through it. So I choose not to judge.

For others, these ceremonies might be stupid, immature, barbaric, etc, etc, etc, but I think these are just personal opinions that are rather judgmental. Just my personal opinion, and there is no need (in my opinion) to debate over it. Plus, many of these "ceremonies" are considered hazing now, it is not like they can do it on base anymore.

Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 04-07-2019 at 06:26 PM..
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
9,576 posts, read 5,277,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
In the kinder gentler world we live in, a lot of things that were tradition have been eliminated as barbaric practice.

From a personal perspective, rites of passage are a part of life. That right of passage is going to involve misery, pain, suffering, and fatigue. The purpose of a rite of passage is not the amusement of others, but persevering over those hardships to become an integral part of the group.

So I understand the message of something like gold wing pinning ceremony. Is it necessary? Of course it is not. But do I think people go through it need to be demonized or stopped? not necessarily. Rituals build bonds of trust between group members, as they frequently require a public declaration of an inner commitment. Like I said, it is NOT necessary, but I understand why it exists.

My brother and many of his friends, and many of my own friends went through gold wing pinning ceremony or something similar to that, I'd say majority of them have put their military career behind, but they still hold the ceremony they went through dear to their heart. As a civilian, I will never understand it because I've never gone through it. So I choose not to judge.

For others, these ceremonies might be stupid, immature, barbaric, etc, etc, etc, but I think these are just personal opinions that are rather judgmental. Just my personal opinion, and there is no need (in my opinion) to debate over it. Plus, many of these "ceremonies" are considered hazing now, it is not like they can do it on base anymore.
Well, like I said, this is assuming that the subject responds in the way that is expected; it did not with me.

Bonds of trust? Hardly. I was there for a purpose that I was going to accomplish regardless of who was in my way. I do not hold being whipped with a saber nor the posse of the Bull Ensign trying to handcuff me to a locker as "dear". I was not there to play a game. If it was necessary to do it to get to the goal, then I did it.

There, done, leave it in the past.

Equally, mind one, I don't see them as stupid, immature, barbaric, or otherwise. I just don't accept them for whatever they are.

But, personally, three things. First of all, I do hold the memory of that locker incident as something significant because from both sides, mine and three male officers, saw just how much strength I could channel through my uncuffed arm to defeat their purposes.

Secondly, perhaps others saw the "lack of trigger pull" on my martial response and my lack of "social graces" to take me aside at times and tell me that you don't say what I said less you get a punch in the mouth, woman or man. Not understanding, I would be likely to observe such as unprovoked and respond devastatingly.

Finally, when I was on shore and the Chief initiations came about, my senior chief declared me off limits for which I am grateful.
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Old 04-08-2019, 08:57 AM
 
366 posts, read 69,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaErik View Post
It's much more common in the civilian world than you think. Ever see a gang initiation, for one?
Since very few people are in 'a gang', what gangs do hardly makes something 'common' in the civilian world.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
32,551 posts, read 19,572,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Well, like I said, this is assuming that the subject responds in the way that is expected; it did not with me.

Bonds of trust? Hardly. I was there for a purpose that I was going to accomplish regardless of who was in my way. I do not hold being whipped with a saber nor the posse of the Bull Ensign trying to handcuff me to a locker as "dear". I was not there to play a game. If it was necessary to do it to get to the goal, then I did it.

There, done, leave it in the past.

Equally, mind one, I don't see them as stupid, immature, barbaric, or otherwise. I just don't accept them for whatever they are.

But, personally, three things. First of all, I do hold the memory of that locker incident as something significant because from both sides, mine and three male officers, saw just how much strength I could channel through my uncuffed arm to defeat their purposes.

Secondly, perhaps others saw the "lack of trigger pull" on my martial response and my lack of "social graces" to take me aside at times and tell me that you don't say what I said less you get a punch in the mouth, woman or man. Not understanding, I would be likely to observe such as unprovoked and respond devastatingly.

Finally, when I was on shore and the Chief initiations came about, my senior chief declared me off limits for which I am grateful.
well, I respect your PERSONAL opinions, like I said, I don't think personal opinions need to be debated. They are just personal opinions.

Plus, I don't think gold wing pinning ceremony is something similar to locker room incident. Not even close. I talked specifically about something like gold wing pinning ceremony, I am not talking about harassment, abuse, or bulling, like singling somebody out, throwing racial slurs at somebody, or assigning excessive guard duty to the point of exhaustion, made to do push-ups while holding water in their mouth, and orput in a "simulated sitting position" and kicked by other soldiers using their knees, among other abuses.. I am not talking about any of the above.

The bottom line is that if they liked the ceremony and viewed it as a bonding process, who, (as a civilian) am I to judge? Quite honestly, I think (based on what you wrote here) you have been harassed and bullied because you did not volunteer for the "incident" (for lack of a better word). You were forced to be in a situation you did not like to be in. For majority of the people ( i know of) who went through gold wing pinning ceremony, the "harassment and bullying" elements are simply not there. They wanted to be there, they wanted to go through it. "wanted" is a very important factor to be considered here. I think (and with all due respect), you are comparing apples to oranges here.

All these being said, gold wing ceremony still has no real military purpose, so it is still not necessary. I am only saying a lot of people who went through it don't view it negatively, that is all. The ONLY reason I personally think it should be banned is because it can get out of hand, people can be unnecessarily harmed or hurt physically.

Bottom line, I said I understand why it (something like gold wing pinning ceremony) exists, I've never said it was wonderful or necessary. (bottom line) This being said, many of the recipients of blood wings consider it a highly honorable rite of passage, although it is against armed force policy. Last but not least, I don't understand why bullying and harassment are viewed as discipline in the military by some people, that part I don't understand.

Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 04-08-2019 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
32,551 posts, read 19,572,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Since very few people are in 'a gang', what gangs do hardly makes something 'common' in the civilian world.
Well, there are a lot of hazing in colleges, especially for the "In" groups". (sports teams have a lot of hazing too) So it is rather common in the civilian world.

Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 04-08-2019 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 04-08-2019, 11:47 AM
 
1,379 posts, read 2,119,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seenee View Post
Obviously it's not just the military that does it, but do you think there really is any benefits to hazing?
While some of it is just silly, much of it is dangerous, so I think it should not be allowed, especially at universities. It can bring individuals in a group closer together, but at what cost?

When it comes to the military, I have mixed emotions. As a result of harassment, our boot camp platoon sent four recruits to the hospital and two to the brig, and the Marines who failed to qualify on the rifle range endured hell for their last few weeks of training. I'm not sure that any of this improved their attitudes, abilities, or love for the Corps.

However, the individuals who were sent to the brig were weak, physically and mentally, and we were a better unit without them.
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Old Yesterday, 01:02 AM
 
6,872 posts, read 2,901,325 times
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Sleep deprivation is hazing and was done almost daily in basic with “fire gaurd”
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Old Yesterday, 03:33 AM
 
Location: Murrica
2,928 posts, read 1,665,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Sleep deprivation is hazing and was done almost daily in basic with “fire gaurd”
Disagree. In my time in the Army, there were many times we were sleep deprived as part of training. The thought being to train the mind and body to make good decisions under stress. Whether real or artificial.

That’s not hazing, it’s a requirement.
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Old Yesterday, 12:49 PM
 
6,872 posts, read 2,901,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1a1mg View Post
Disagree. In my time in the Army, there were many times we were sleep deprived as part of training. The thought being to train the mind and body to make good decisions under stress. Whether real or artificial.

That’s not hazing, it’s a requirement.
It was done 6 days a week for 3 months, many people (including myself) started dealing medical issues due to extreme sleep deprivation. A “bombing raid” drill or what ever you want to call it a few times during training is valid. 6 days a week is not, you can disagree but most doctors won’t
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, AK
6,814 posts, read 3,803,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
Sleep deprivation is hazing and was done almost daily in basic with “fire gaurd”
That's not hazing, that's a legitimate duty performed by recruits. Where do you come up with this crap?
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