The Tragedy of the American Military (Army, reserve, stationed, veteran)
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I, too am older than Fallows and I passed my preinduction physical and was drafted and put in my time and got out. You were free to make your choice, I was not. I hold no grudge for those who used every method to avoid doing time while politicians, chasing votes and supporting big business, sent my brothers and yours to their deaths while keeping their own kids home. As one famous objector stated "I Ain’t Got No Quarrel With Them Vietcong." I didn't then, still don't today and respect the decision that any young man made in those times. It's the American way.
I am a Millennial, I wonder why don't you respect the soldiers who chose to stay?
When I lost my first true love in ME, I decided to be a war protester. I told my friends (I still have had a lot of friends who served in the Marine Corps) that I wanted to be a war protester and I wanted to fight for their right to live. To my surprise, majority of my friends told me that they felt betrayed by me. They did not fight for the country or the people, they fought for the people standing next to them. So many of them chose to re-enlist. I am not saying ALL of them share the exact same mentality, but many us civilians ( I am only talking about people like me ) will never truly understand this kind of mentality.
I was deeply touched by the brotherhood they shared in battlefield, and certainly, they earned my respect.
TBF - the US has very good special forces and intelligence gathering agencies, and has invested heavily in drones and cyber warfare.
Furthermore the US has been succesful in keeping the peace since WW2, as all those conventional and nuclear forces mean that few countries would want to go to war with the US.
In terms of Vietnam, it was the unpopularity of the war at home and the Vietnamese peoples ability to take extremely heavy losses, whilst the middle east is a no win situation, as are countries like Afghanistan, and it's best not to be drawn in to ground wars in such areas.
Britain had to fight a lot of wars after leaving Empire, some were more succesful than others, although one of the most striking succeses was during the Malayan Emergency when large numbers of civilians were put in to 'new villages' with barbed wire around them and special crack forces including the Royal Marines and King's African Rifles and headed by the SAS were sent in to hunt down and kill the Communist Guerillas and to use the very same irregular warfare tactics againt the communist forces.
All of those weapons have expiration dates and that’s where much of waste is. There is tremendous amount of operational expense associated with this and that’s a problem. We use the excuse keeping the peace, but it’s protecting our commodity interests that is at the top of that list.
Just look at Assad in Syria. We don’t care because they don’t have anything we want.
All of those weapons have expiration dates and that’s where much of waste is. There is tremendous amount of operational expense associated with this and that’s a problem. We use the excuse keeping the peace, but it’s protecting our commodity interests that is at the top of that list.
Just look at Assad in Syria. We don’t care because they don’t have anything we want.
TBH - there are no commodities in Afghanistan, and the world is starting to move away from fossil fuels such as oil.
In terms of Syria, the US and her allies have ben involved in air strikes against Daesh, but have not committed ground forces in relation to a very bloody conflict and this is perfectly senseible.
The more you can do through air stikes, unmanned drones, cyber and intelligence the better, as that way you avoid as many of your own casaulities as possible.
As technology progresses, so might the need for as many ground forces and ground forces themselves may become increasingly unmanned weapons.
There may also be a need for more special forces and specialist forces in the US and other allied armed forces.
I am a Millennial, I wonder why don't you respect the soldiers who chose to stay?
When I lost my first true love in ME, I decided to be a war protester. I told my friends (I still have had a lot of friends who served in the Marine Corps) that I wanted to be a war protester and I wanted to fight for their right to live. To my surprise, majority of my friends told me that they felt betrayed by me. They did not fight for the country or the people, they fought for the people standing next to them. So many of them chose to re-enlist. I am not saying ALL of them share the exact same mentality, but many us civilians ( I am only talking about people like me ) will never truly understand this kind of mentality.
I was deeply touched by the brotherhood they shared in battlefield, and certainly, they earned my respect.
Saying they feel "betrayed" by you is just how they rationalize and justify their own lives. It's on them. You didn't "betray" anybody. Really, why should they feel betrayed? They were not being betrayed but insisted on saying that because it's how the group enforces its psychological control and make it "us."
They "feel betrayed" (or choose to feel that way) and that means they have no idea and wanted to have no idea of just what the heck they were doing there.
You are right in that these things rarely involve fighting for freedom, apple pie, baseball, etc etc. They fight because they're there! The movie The Bridges at Toko Ri, while not considered an anti-war movie a la the 1960's/70's does not sugar coat the whole war ideal as part of larger heroics. The William Holden character evens says almost exactly what you said. You fight because you're there. Then the survivors go around retconning their lives and events with their hands out wanting emotional "tips" from the world.
I am a Millennial, I wonder why don't you respect the soldiers who chose to stay?
When I lost my first true love in ME, I decided to be a war protester. I told my friends (I still have had a lot of friends who served in the Marine Corps) that I wanted to be a war protester and I wanted to fight for their right to live. To my surprise, majority of my friends told me that they felt betrayed by me. They did not fight for the country or the people, they fought for the people standing next to them. So many of them chose to re-enlist. I am not saying ALL of them share the exact same mentality, but many us civilians ( I am only talking about people like me ) will never truly understand this kind of mentality.
I was deeply touched by the brotherhood they shared in battlefield, and certainly, they earned my respect.
The bolded is a bizarre question; it is something I never said or even approached in any way- where did you get that from?
The bolded is a bizarre question; it is something I never said or even approached in any way- where did you get that from?
After reading it couple of time, I guess you were saying you respected the decision made by draft dodgers.
So my bad. I apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty
I, too am older than Fallows and I passed my preinduction physical and was drafted and put in my time and got out. You were free to make your choice, I was not. I hold no grudge for those who used every method to avoid doing time while politicians, chasing votes and supporting big business, sent my brothers and yours to their deaths while keeping their own kids home. As one famous objector stated "I Ain’t Got No Quarrel With Them Vietcong." I didn't then, still don't today and respect the decision that any young man made in those times. It's the American way.
All these being said, I don't really hate the draft dodgers either. People do what they have to do in order to survive. But you cannot deny that a lot of draft dodgers hide behind the "anti war" mask and tried to make other people's life miserable. Those are the worst kind.
Same as the "protesters" in front of VA hospital. (I saw them couple of times myself) If they really are anti-war, do it in front of the white house, any government building, or Marine Corps base, but noooo, they chose to do it in front of the VA hospital. Cowards, that is what they are.
Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 08-24-2019 at 03:32 PM..
Do you believe that your 22 years in the military, my two years, or Fallows' zero years gives any of us more of a right to voice his opinion than the others?
maybe not the right... but the credibility...…...
You also left out the next sentence of the wikipedia article that you copied your post from. And it was the most important part.
From Wikipedia:
There is a lot of valid points in many of the things he says. Unfortunately, many from the opposite side of the aisle will just skip over it. What is quite telling is I've seen people opposite of him politically post similar view points and the military members completely agree.
As I recall, the class bias of the Viet Nam draft was still offset by some upper middle class folks. I (from a very poor family) attended Air Force Officer Training School in late 1968 with people from Princeton, Harvard, and I am pretty sure one of the scions of the Whitney family was also a classmate of mine. There were loads of Air Force Academy, Annapolis and West Point folks around during the war as well.
I wonder what would happen if we reinstated the draft. Theoretically, we should not need as many men, since women should be also be eligible to serve in some capacity. (Although we had huge national debates about that subject before).
The military are just pawns in their game. Wars are not meant to be won, but to earn money for the people who supply the materials of war. This was pointed out back in 1935 by Smedley Butler in his speech "War is a Racket". From Wikipedia...
"War Is a Racket is a speech and a 1935 short book, by Smedley D. Butler, a retired United States Marine Corps Major General and two-time Medal of Honor recipient. Based on his career military experience, Butler discusses how business interests commercially benefit, such as war profiteering from warfare."
I look at it this way. During the Eisenhower administration, the military industrial complex sold us (the taxpayers who paid for it) 16,000 nuclear warheads plus delivery systems like missiles, bombers, submarines, plus bases, supplies, gas and diesel, under the theory of containing communism. After people realized that 16,000 H-bombs were more than enough to blow up the planet, the military industrial complex needed a new source of profits. So they sold us on engaging the communists in Vietnam under the theory of the domino principle.
When JFK attempted to thwart their plans by firing Alan Dulles as head of the CIA and taking the first steps to withdraw troops from Vietnam, he was gunned down by a cabal of oil interests, the CIA, and the mafia. Johnson immediately satisfied his real constituency (not the people) by quickly expanding the American involvement in the Vietnamese civil war. The military industrial complex had a 12 year war they could earn profits on. The longer the war lasted, the more they made. I still have a vision of all those helicopters being tossed in the sea during the retreat from Saigon. But the military industrial complex sold us all those arms and planes and boats and copters, so they made their money.
Fast forward to 2003, and another payday was needed, so another 16 years of war production to date to satisfy their desire for profits. This time they even did better thanks to private contractors who participated in combat and who created concessions to cook the food, wash the laundry, etc. for soldiers in the combat zone.
These wars aren't supposed to be won. They are just supposed to last as long as possible, to keep the military industrial complex in profits. The only question you need to ask yourself is who profits from these wars. Not the soldiers in the armed services, not the people in the country we are fighting in, not the American public. Just those who manufacture, sell and finance the war materials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida
I don't know if this is to everyone's taste, but I thought it was interesting (and I like the writer James Fallows). It's a long wide-ranging piece in The Atlantic from a few years back about attitudes and realities.
The Tragedy of the American Military
The American public and its political leadership will do anything for the military except take it seriously. The result is a chickenhawk nation in which careless spending and strategic folly combine to lure America into endless wars it can’t win.
Ours is the best-equipped fighting force in history, and it is incomparably the most expensive ... Yet repeatedly this force has been defeated by less modern, worse-equipped, barely funded foes. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...litary/383516/
After reading it couple of time, I guess you were saying you respected the decision made by draft dodgers.
So my bad. I apologize.
All these being said, I don't really hate the draft dodgers either. People do what they have to do in order to survive. But you cannot deny that a lot of draft dodgers hide behind the "anti war" mask and tried to make other people's life miserable. Those are the worst kind.
Same as the "protesters" in front of VA hospital. (I saw them couple of times myself) If they really are anti-war, do it in front of the white house, any government building, or Marine Corps base, but noooo, they chose to do it in front of the VA hospital. Cowards, that is what they are.
A person who takes a stand in public is never a coward in my book. The more public they are, the stronger the point they make.
I don't think you have the perspective on this that someone who lived through it has and are basing your views on what you've gleaned second hand. That will vary according to the sources you access.
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