Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
on a personal or even small group level..... I think so. For the entire military force/ country........no.
Take calley..........company sized unit {largest one to my knowledge} that commited an atrocity with no doubt. after coming to light universally condemned. Helicopter crew even threatened them at gunpoint.
on a personal or even small group level..... I think so. For the entire military force/ country........no.
Take calley..........company sized unit {largest one to my knowledge} that commited an atrocity with no doubt. after coming to light universally condemned. Helicopter crew even threatened them at gunpoint.
The events of My Lai are horrific but again, look at all the attention it got? American's were horrified, for good reason.
But, alternatively, who talks about the massacre in Hue in 1968 when Viet Cong and North Vietnam soldiers murdered some 6,000 civilians of that city, many by burying alive? Certainly not modern day Vietnam, it's forbidden, and the event is almost unknown here.
War is a brutal business, and humanity also means confronting, questioning, and condemning those crimes committed during wartime. Germany spent an entire soul-searching generation dealing with it. Some societies, due to the authoritative nature of it's government (Vietnam), or just the entrenched xenophobic nature of it's culture (Japan for instance) will not do this.
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk A culture based on humanity will have, even in combat, a floor below which it will not sink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner I must disagree.
Humans [if they feel desperate] will gladly sink to levels far lower than anticipated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner on a personal or even small group level..... I think so. For the entire military force/ country........no.
Take calley..........company sized unit {largest one to my knowledge} that commited an atrocity with no doubt. after coming to light universally condemned. Helicopter crew even threatened them at gunpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714
The events of My Lai are horrific but again, look at all the attention it got? American's were horrified, for good reason.
But, alternatively, who talks about the massacre in Hue in 1968 when Viet Cong and North Vietnam soldiers murdered some 6,000 civilians of that city, many by burying alive? Certainly not modern day Vietnam, it's forbidden, and the event is almost unknown here.
I think you missed the point jeffdoorgunner was making or the direction of the discussion, if you think the action of the Vietcong is an "alternately" that needed to be raised in addition to the atrocities by the Nazis and the Japanese that had already been mentioned.
Quote:
War is a brutal business, and humanity also means confronting, questioning, and condemning those crimes committed during wartime. Germany spent an entire soul-searching generation dealing with it. Some societies, due to the authoritative nature of its government (Vietnam), or just the entrenched xenophobic nature of it's culture (Japan for instance) will not do this.
Losing the war is a great invitation for soul searching. The government of Vietnam has not done any soul searching because they "won" their war, which they took as vindication of whatever they did to win it. Japan, yes, has an entrenched xenophobic nature that will not allow it to do soul searching even in failure.
But the US was horrified by the actions of some troops even during the course of war, which is a vote in favor of basic American humanity of the day.
During the Bosnian war, I watched an interview with several US Army generals in which the point was raised by the interviewer that mostly civilians were being killed--hardly any military forces at all. The Army generals were clearly and obviously personally distressed by that turn of the war. Killing civilians was not what they had signed up for...and, of course, these generals were from the "class of Vietnam."
The events of My Lai are horrific but again, look at all the attention it got? American's were horrified, for good reason.
But, alternatively, who talks about the massacre in Hue in 1968 when Viet Cong and North Vietnam soldiers murdered some 6,000 civilians of that city, many by burying alive? Certainly not modern day Vietnam, it's forbidden, and the event is almost unknown here.
War is a brutal business, and humanity also means confronting, questioning, and condemning those crimes committed during wartime. Germany spent an entire soul-searching generation dealing with it. Some societies, due to the authoritative nature of it's government (Vietnam), or just the entrenched xenophobic nature of it's culture (Japan for instance) will not do this.
I have opened that can of worms about Hue and the atrocities committed by the NVA and VC. It usually falls on deaf ears. For me, one of the saddest overlooked results of that war is the South Vietnamese. 250,000 ARVN were KIA . Thats not counting the wounded............40,000 south vietnamese civilians were executed by the NVA.........and what do we constantly hear??? How horrible it was for the North vietnamese........
The war was fought IN the south........no foriegn soldier set foot in North Vietnam, except the russians and Chinese. Talk about Proxy wars. the chinese were killing american soldiers back then for years.......
I think you missed the point jeffdoorgunner was making or the direction of the discussion, if you think the action of the Vietcong is an "alternately" that needed to be raised in addition to the atrocities by the Nazis and the Japanese that had already been mentioned.
Well, we were talking about the cultural impact of brutality in war, right? And also the contrast in how it is managed.
Not sure I understand your objections. I missed no point. Yes jeffdoorgunner was talking individual/small group level actions vs. systematic brutality. This is all part of the same topic - smaller groups of soldiers are subject to falling into the barbarity of war if not restrained by 1.) leadership, discipline, and training, 2.) culture, and 3.) defined rules of engagement. You need all three. In My Lai they failed the first component. In Vietnam, "Charlie" didn't use rules of engagement, but the attack had an agenda - they actually attacked Hue with the intention to kill, with lists of enemies. For Japan's well training and disciplined IJA however, the rules of engagement including "kill all, burn all, loot all", and the officers were brutal to there own soldiers, and the culture was one of viewing all non-Japanese as subhuman. Without those restraints on all levels, brutality was to be expected.
I have opened that can of worms about Hue and the atrocities committed by the NVA and VC. It usually falls on deaf ears. For me, one of the saddest overlooked results of that war is the South Vietnamese. 250,000 ARVN were KIA . Thats not counting the wounded............40,000 south vietnamese civilians were executed by the NVA.........and what do we constantly hear??? How horrible it was for the North vietnamese........
The war was fought IN the south........no foriegn soldier set foot in North Vietnam, except the russians and Chinese. Talk about Proxy wars. the chinese were killing american soldiers back then for years.......
Yes exactly. It actually seems like Ralph Kirk was mad that I even mentioned Hue.
Well, Chinese tried to kill my father in Korea but he is still around.
Yes exactly. It actually seems like Ralph Kirk was mad that I even mentioned Hue.
Well, Chinese tried to kill my father in Korea but he is still around.
ya. Chinese almost got my uncle in korea too..........he walked out of the chosin with nothing but bad frostbite..........
Originally Posted by Dd714 Yes exactly. It actually seems like Ralph Kirk was mad that I even mentioned Hue.
Well, Chinese tried to kill my father in Korea but he is still around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner
ya. Chinese almost got my uncle in korea too..........he walked out of the chosin with nothing but bad frostbite..........
I also had an uncle at Chosin. He wound up in hand-to-hand with a Chinese soldier who he strangled to death. He said it seemed to take forever for the light to go out of that soldier's eyes. That was something he told me one afternoon at the VFW bar just a few months before he died.
Originally Posted by Dd714 Yes exactly. It actually seems like Ralph Kirk was mad that I even mentioned Hue.
Well, Chinese tried to kill my father in Korea but he is still around.
I also had an uncle at Chosin. He wound up in hand-to-hand with a Chinese soldier who he strangled to death. He said it seemed to take forever for the light to go out of that soldier's eyes. That was something he told me one afternoon at the VFW bar just a few months before he died.
I can see why he waited until just before he died to relate that. I cannot even begin to imagine living with that the rest of my life. The few things I will never forget.......pale in comparison.
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk Originally Posted by Dd714 Yes exactly. It actually seems like Ralph Kirk was mad that I even mentioned Hue.
Well, Chinese tried to kill my father in Korea but he is still around.
I also had an uncle at Chosin. He wound up in hand-to-hand with a Chinese soldier who he strangled to death. He said it seemed to take forever for the light to go out of that soldier's eyes. That was something he told me one afternoon at the VFW bar just a few months before he died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner
I can see why he waited until just before he died to relate that. I cannot even begin to imagine living with that the rest of my life. The few things I will never forget.......pale in comparison.
Back in 1966, I spent a couple of weeks of the summer with that uncle and my aunt at Ft Leonard Wood. I remember one night that we'd just watched some war movie. Maybe he'd been drinking a little. What I didn't know as a kid at the time was that he'd just gotten orders for Vietnam.
In the middle of the night, I was awakened to hear him screaming madly. I ran into their bedroom and found him straddling my aunt in their bed, strangling her, screaming at the top of his lungs...still asleep.
Nobody was talking about PTSD yet back in 1966.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
