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Old 01-05-2021, 11:21 AM
 
8,726 posts, read 7,364,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
As a retiree who struggles with mental health issues, and never got any treatment on active duty beyond a few docs tossing me bottles of antidepressants, I'm going to sympathize with the young man up to the point of him refusing medications, allegedly for religious reasons. That's B.S., because medications are the only thing capable of controlling the really bad stuff like bipolar disorder. You can't talk therapy your way out of bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or even PTSD. If it were true of the latter, the VA budget would suddenly shoot into the black.



That said, here's a couple of quotes from a news article today discussing the redesign of psych hospitals.



"Even before the pandemic, the number of Americans affected by mental illness was at a new high. One in five adults was experiencing depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress or some other malady, according to the National Institute of Mental Health. The rates were significantly higher for adolescents (about 50 percent) and young adults (about 30 percent)."


"Care early in life is crucial because half of all lifetime mental illnesses present themselves by age 15 and 75 percent by age 24, said Dr. Susan Swick, Ohana’s physician in chief."



So based on the sentences above, who should be blamed? The young man? Or was it poor screening by the MEPS and active duty docs at the entry level?



Craziest thing I've seen so far is I ran into a troubled young former veteran with schizophrenia. Half of his mental anguish was that basic training put him in the psych ward for 9 months and then the VA gave him a 100% disability rating for life. Poor guy was even more mentally ill from the guilt of getting that $3,300 a month (tax free) without ever having really served. Again, who's fault was that?



The VA is well-aware that troubled young men seek out the military. Recruiters? Not so much. Like the famous Upton Sinclair quote from The Jungle, their job security and career success depends on ignoring such problems. The military takes advantage of the troubled and economically disadvantaged to make their numbers. It's been that way forever, so don't be so shocked about the occasional financial fallout from their actions. It's the cost of doing business like they do.
The thing is, just from the OP article, all this guy seems to want is shore duty. I just have to call BS on the whole thing due to that. He is magically just fine when not on the ship. Sorry, even if so, he needs booted then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
A quote from the article: "Despite the alarm of the psychologists’ notes, the Greggs were told separation from the Navy is a lengthy, time-consuming process that would consist of baby steps."



For those of you who served during DADT: How long would it have taken him to be discharged by the Navy for being gay?



I saw an Army sergeant get ordered to be discharged within 48-hours for that crime.
Seen numerous people get the early boot for all sorts of reasons, including stating they are gay, can be done easily under a month.
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,508 posts, read 17,961,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
A quote from the article: "Despite the alarm of the psychologists’ notes, the Greggs were told separation from the Navy is a lengthy, time-consuming process that would consist of baby steps."



For those of you who served during DADT: How long would it have taken him to be discharged by the Navy for being gay?



I saw an Army sergeant get ordered to be discharged within 48-hours for that crime.
So in my experience (and I was not serving during DADT so only speak from more recent experience), it can take anywhere from 1 to 3 months to separate someone from service. But a lot also comes down to how long you were in service and whether you are being voluntarily or involuntarily separated.

Involuntary separations generally take longer as you are fighting things and appealing, which all takes time. There is an exception as applies to involuntarily separating service members who have less than a certain period of time in the military; at least in the Navy, these people are much easier to separate for "failure to acclimate" and a commanding officer can separate without sending to an administrative separation board.

Somewhat ironically, a medical separation will take longer generally as you have more appointments and assessments to go through. And, even with non-medical separations, you still generally have to be "medically cleared" in order to be separated as the military doesn't want to send a broken service member out into the world as it opens up all kinds of ethical and possible liability issues.
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
The thing is, just from the OP article, all this guy seems to want is shore duty. I just have to call BS on the whole thing due to that. He is magically just fine when not on the ship. Sorry, even if so, he needs booted then.

Seen numerous people get the early boot for all sorts of reasons, including stating they are gay, can be done easily under a month.

For some strange reason, Navy leadership seems to like being in the media more so than the other services for highly embarrassing crap.



I get it, I was in enlisted senior leadership, but the mentality of "no one is getting out of this war, deployment, exercise, etc., without an example being made out of them and their future life wrecked, is futile in cases of soldiers/sailors/airmen like this guy. This a textbook case of the fight going on/went on with those who have PTSD and also have bad conduct discharges because of their PTSD, with the result being that they can't get care at the VA because of the bad paperwork. To me, this is exactly what the command was intentionally trying to do, sabotage any future benefits or employment. People in this thread have admitted to participating in this.



The naval command could have saved themselves a lot of embarrassment and harsh examination of whether or not they're fit to lead by simply reading statistics on what percentage of people wash out and have to be sent home; rather than trying to operate out of their scope of expertise (pretend their psychologist and psychiatrists) in deciding "who doesn't want to be there, versus who can't be there for mental health or substance abuse reasons.



Psychiatry and psychology are "opinion" based fields, so it's a zero sum game, and either side can present an expert with a desired opinion.
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
And, even with non-medical separations, you still generally have to be "medically cleared" in order to be separated as the military doesn't want to send a broken service member out into the world as it opens up all kinds of ethical and possible liability issues.

I'm sorry but that bolded part of your sentence me laugh. I was the enlisted leader of a crack cocaine addict on the tail-end of her first enlistment. Due to budget cuts for the hollowed out 1990s force, there were no facilities on the base (nor where they willing to send her somewhere for help) to treat that kind of drug addiction. Oh, and she was suicidal too after coming back from being AWOL. So to solve the problem, the battalion SGM had my platoon guard her 24/7 at night and on a weekend, while during the day I personally escorted her around to facilitate her out-processing; throwing big names around to anyone who balked at an expedited disposal of her career and person. I think it took me three or so work days to get her out.



Has the military became more caring? Not in my opinion. They're just better at hiding their dirty laundry in most cases.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,508 posts, read 17,961,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
I'm sorry but that bolded part of your sentence me laugh. I was the enlisted leader of a crack cocaine addict on the tail-end of her first enlistment. Due to budget cuts for the hollowed out 1990s force, there were no facilities on the base (nor where they willing to send her somewhere for help) to treat that kind of drug addiction. Oh, and she was suicidal too after coming back from being AWOL. So to solve the problem, the battalion SGM had my platoon guard her 24/7 at night and on a weekend, while during the day I personally escorted her around to facilitate her out-processing; throwing big names around to anyone who balked at an expedited disposal of her career and person. I think it took me three or so work days to get her out.



Has the military became more caring? Not in my opinion. They're just better at hiding their dirty laundry in most cases.
At least in the Navy today, the standard would be to provide for some kind of patient care treatment, whether via in-patient or out-patient care, followed by or in addition to other things. In my experience, people getting kicked out for drug or alcohol abuse have to go to treatment (they can probably refuse, but I'm not familiar with how that works exactly).
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:09 PM
 
21 posts, read 26,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
At least in the Navy today, the standard would be to provide for some kind of patient care treatment, whether via in-patient or out-patient care, followed by or in addition to other things. In my experience, people getting kicked out for drug or alcohol abuse have to go to treatment (they can probably refuse, but I'm not familiar with how that works exactly).

One of the "elephant in the room" parts of this case is how the military health system works. By that, I mean, the military health system reports to commanders. So putting a guy like this in a military psych ward means the psych ward personnel are not only essentially working on behalf of the command, they're also reporting every private detail of this guy's mental health to the command, something that's illegal in the civilian world.



Admitting to being suicidal, most especially with admitting to having a plan to kill yourself is grounds for involuntary commitment just about everywhere.



If his mental treatment had of all been in the civilian sector, we wouldn't be reading this. He'd of quickly been back being a civilian and the Navy wouldn't be in the news.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:22 PM
 
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The reporter would have been wise to reference the PTSD fiasco at Madigan Army Medical Center.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,508 posts, read 17,961,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
One of the "elephant in the room" parts of this case is how the military health system works. By that, I mean, the military health system reports to commanders. So putting a guy like this in a military psych ward means the psych ward personnel are not only essentially working on behalf of the command, they're also reporting every private detail of this guy's mental health to the command, something that's illegal in the civilian world.



Admitting to being suicidal, most especially with admitting to having a plan to kill yourself is grounds for involuntary commitment just about everywhere.



If his mental treatment had of all been in the civilian sector, we wouldn't be reading this. He'd of quickly been back being a civilian and the Navy wouldn't be in the news.
That's a concern in rare instances where emergency care is needed while on deployment and a ship's doctor, etc., would have to treat a sailor in the interim. For the most part, the medical team is under their own, separate chain of command and do not report to any random unit commander, though they would ultimately report to the Chief of Naval Operations in the case of the Navy. Thus, the commander of this ex-Sailor's ship would not have oversight over the Navy (or other branch) healthcare providers who would have been caring for the ex-Sailor (or just generally speaking).

As for medical disclosure exceptions, it is true that there is a military disclosure exception to HIPPA, but even then covered providers are not required to disclose. In my experience, minimum detail will be provided in those cases that do get disclosed, and service members generally consent to such disclosure (again, in my experience).

This site goes through the exceptions, both generally and for mental health and substance abuse issues: https://compliancy-group.com/hipaa-m...e%20disclosure.

Note, there are ways to secure information in the civilian sector, too, though the exceptions are not as broad as for the DoD.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 01-05-2021 at 12:53 PM..
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Old 01-05-2021, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,272 posts, read 61,027,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
... the mentality of "no one is getting out of this war, deployment, exercise, etc., without an example being made out of them and their future life wrecked, is futile in cases of soldiers/sailors/airmen like this guy. This a textbook case of the fight going on/went on with those who have PTSD and also have bad conduct discharges because of their PTSD, with the result being that they can't get care at the VA because of the bad paperwork. To me, this is exactly what the command was intentionally trying to do, sabotage any future benefits or employment. People in this thread have admitted to participating in this.
I have heard that mentality expressed many times, at each boat I served on.

"If this sailor can not conform then we will make his/her life a living hell and screw up their future as much as we can simply to make an example of them."



Quote:
... Psychiatry and psychology are "opinion" based fields, so it's a zero sum game, and either side can present an expert with a desired opinion.
I have known many E8s and E9s who counsel their subordinates to get Psychiatry/psychology degrees, saying that because that field is solely based on opinion there are no wrong answers on the exams.

The goat lockers were full of amateur Psychiatry and psychology majors.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunner57 View Post
One of the "elephant in the room" parts of this case is how the military health system works. By that, I mean, the military health system reports to commanders. So putting a guy like this in a military psych ward means the psych ward personnel are not only essentially working on behalf of the command, they're also reporting every private detail of this guy's mental health to the command, something that's illegal in the civilian world.
Absolutely.

The Medical Department Head on each boat I served on was an HM Corpsman, either an E6, E7, or E8.

That enlisted HM Corpsman works for the CO.

They do not have a college degree, they are NOT MD doctors. They are enlisted HM Corpsmen.

How much power do you really want an enlistedmen to have over other men?
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Old 01-05-2021, 03:17 PM
 
13,262 posts, read 7,951,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
https://www.seattleweekly.com/news/u...lth-treatment/

Very disturbing read. If things went down like this (and acknowledging that we only have one side of the story), this would be very troubling. That said, while I don't have reason to doubt the story provided here, I'll just add that ASAN Gregg's treatment is vastly different from what I've seen happen with my Sailors. I have had suicidal Sailors in my unit and they were hospitalized for well over 6 days (one in particular was hospitalized for three weeks) and then reassigned elsewhere en route to out-processing, which is not a simple process (and shouldn't be as the Navy wants to make sure that you're medically cleared to even be separated).

That said, I can't discount the offer by the Navy to medicate ASAN Gregg . . . curious to know what the religious reasons against medication were

Maybe Christian Scientist?
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