Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just want to clarify to all those who are concerned with facts instead of political Pied Piper news, No US Marine has been discharged who has submitted a formal request for a religious exemption with supporting documentation. The fact that no exemption have been issued for bonified religious exemptions is simply because they are just starting the review process for legitimate religious exemptions. Remember, you can't just say "I object on religious grounds". To make it a legitimate request, it must follow a formal written process. Those who followed proper procedures and made the exemption request are all undergoing review. And, yes, their exemption has not been approved YET but neither are they facing a discharge deadline. Putzes who just refused and are facing discharge who suddenly got filled with the hallelujah holy spirit and went and got themselves religion and now shouting "religious exemption", well those moops deserve to be thrown out!
Understand your post but it’s illegal to begin the road down “analyzing religion” to see if it fits in your square or not. The government under title 7, cannot begin the process of a religious test, which is what would be done to analyze a person’s belief towards a religious opinion. The government’s restrictions into looking into citizens (and employees) cannot measure one’s adherence to religion. Nor can the government gauge how well someone articulates their religion and relationship with their God.
Now in 2021 the federal government thinks this is okay to do and the Supreme Court is going to hammer the government and military for the religious zealots acting as overseeing religious exemptions for Covid.
For the military, blind obedience to Covid vaccines omits the use of fetal cells to develop vaccines. If the military wanted to be more honest, they should have simply denied acceptance of religious exemptions vs denying every-single-request-for-religious-exemption. Now the military has painted themselves into a corner. When the thousands of lawsuits are decided, the military will look back on this decision with a heavy heart.
Understand your post but it’s illegal to begin the road down “analyzing religion” to see if it fits in your square or not. The government under title 7, cannot begin the process of a religious test, which is what would be done to analyze a person’s belief towards a religious opinion.
Where are you getting this "Test" thing? The procedure is the Marine makes a formal request to be exempt from the vaccine under religious grounds. The Marine must follow certain affirmation steps which include a meeting with a legal and religious service person. This isn't to analyze their belief but rather have them state the religious objection so it can be clearly documented. And yes, I fully know that a secondary purpose is to have that marine go formally on record in front of a legal and religious officer as witnesses to the affirmation of their religious belief in case it turns out to be a lie. That information is sent up to a special panel that will be reading each request along with supporting documentation and either granting the exemption or denying the exemption.
Right now, a lot of those losers were disobeying a lawful order because of some misguided belief. Now that they are suddenly facing the real threat of a discharge, well they now are claiming "religious exemption". A majority of these so called marines snitching to their press probably never even thought religious exemption. Now, facing a discharge and with todays ruling on the National Guard, they realize their butts are halfway out the door for disobeying a lawful military order, so the holy spirt moved them to become religious.
Personally, I'm advocating they receive other than an Honorable or General. They are willfully disobeying a lawful order and probably willfully lying about their so-called religious beliefs; just kick their coward butts to the curb!
Understand your post but it’s illegal to begin the road down “analyzing religion” to see if it fits in your square or not. The government under title 7, cannot begin the process of a religious test, which is what would be done to analyze a person’s belief towards a religious opinion. The government’s restrictions into looking into citizens (and employees) cannot measure one’s adherence to religion. Nor can the government gauge how well someone articulates their religion and relationship with their God.
Now in 2021 the federal government thinks this is okay to do and the Supreme Court is going to hammer the government and military for the religious zealots acting as overseeing religious exemptions for Covid.
For the military, blind obedience to Covid vaccines omits the use of fetal cells to develop vaccines. If the military wanted to be more honest, they should have simply denied acceptance of religious exemptions vs denying every-single-request-for-religious-exemption. Now the military has painted themselves into a corner. When the thousands of lawsuits are decided, the military will look back on this decision with a heavy heart.
Let me see here. Masks, social distancing and vaccinations are useless. And yet you yourself are personally vaccinated.
I got the vaccine because I don’t want to be locked down on base and/or fired. Also, another minor reason, my company gave me $250 to get it.
I wear a mask because I don’t want to be kicked out of a facility and/or fired.
I social distance because I don’t want to be kicked out of a facility and/or fired.
If none of those reasons existed, I would not have gotten the vaccine, nor would I wear a mask or social distance.
The reason why I didn’t want to get the vaccine? I firmly believe I already had Covid twice. But not only that, I spent nearly two decades in the PACOM AOR and I believe I have been exposed to previous corona viruses. I’ve had sinus problems where I temporarily lost my sense of smell back 15 years ago when I was stationed in Korea. I didn’t realize it at the time, but looking back, that was obviously some kind of corona related virus.
So the main problem is that there is no avenue for people who have been exposed and don’t need to get a vaccine. In a perfect world, everyone would get an anti body test before getting the vaccine. Obviously, we don’t live in that world, so everyone is being pushed to get a vaccine.
I don’t agree with that policy. As far as the handful of people who allegedly have a severe negative reaction to the vaccine, well, that happens. People get cancer or get hit by a bus or a train. That’s life.
Where are you getting this "Test" thing? The procedure is the Marine makes a formal request to be exempt from the vaccine under religious grounds. The Marine must follow certain affirmation steps which include a meeting with a legal and religious service person. This isn't to analyze their belief but rather have them state the religious objection so it can be clearly documented. And yes, I fully know that a secondary purpose is to have that marine go formally on record in front of a legal and religious officer as witnesses to the affirmation of their religious belief in case it turns out to be a lie. That information is sent up to a special panel that will be reading each request along with supporting documentation and either granting the exemption or denying the exemption.
Right now, a lot of those losers were disobeying a lawful order because of some misguided belief. Now that they are suddenly facing the real threat of a discharge, well they now are claiming "religious exemption". A majority of these so called marines snitching to their press probably never even thought religious exemption. Now, facing a discharge and with todays ruling on the National Guard, they realize their butts are halfway out the door for disobeying a lawful military order, so the holy spirt moved them to become religious.
Personally, I'm advocating they receive other than an Honorable or General. They are willfully disobeying a lawful order and probably willfully lying about their so-called religious beliefs; just kick their coward butts to the curb!
The “religious panels” set up with the Marines and DOD will be high pressure to hear from “all the losers” (your words to describe Marines). If you think these religious panels will now magically approve any of the already 100% rejected applications, then that’s your opinion. Every rejected application for religious exemption must not have contained the right verbiage to “pass” their initial review. But the oral testimony will change their minds?
As stated in an earlier post, the military should have just denied submitting exemptions and fought that fight. As required by law, a process for requesting exemptions was created and the forms were produced. The legal process is for the application process to be legitimate and not a farce. Meaning the religious questions asked on the exemption form must be relevant and germane. Thousands of application requests have been denied; without one approval (per DOD).
The religious panels (who have already denied every single written packet) will have the responsibility to assess a service members religious belief orally. These are surely Marines that are trying to game a system while many are honorable. When every single religious exemption, following these religious panels, is denied, lots of lawsuits, particularly from the ACLU, will surface.
But you painted all Marines who refuse the Covid vaccines, and all the future boosters, as “losers”. Does that blind the facts?
The “religious panels” set up with the Marines and DOD will be high pressure to hear from “all the losers” (your words to describe Marines). If you think these religious panels will now magically approve any of the already 100% rejected applications, then that’s your opinion. Every rejected application for religious exemption must not have contained the right verbiage to “pass” their initial review. But the oral testimony will change their minds?
As stated in an earlier post, the military should have just denied submitting exemptions and fought that fight. As required by law, a process for requesting exemptions was created and the forms were produced. The legal process is for the application process to be legitimate and not a farce. Meaning the religious questions asked on the exemption form must be relevant and germane. Thousands of application requests have been denied; without one approval (per DOD).
The religious panels (who have already denied every single written packet) will have the responsibility to assess a service members religious belief orally. These are surely Marines that are trying to game a system while many are honorable. When every single religious exemption, following these religious panels, is denied, lots of lawsuits, particularly from the ACLU, will surface.
But you painted all Marines who refuse the Covid vaccines, and all the future boosters, as “losers”. Does that blind the facts?
What is distinct about this vaccine that their religion forbids it, but not all of the other vaccines they received?
If you honestly answer that, you'll come to the conclusion their vaccine denial is probably not based on religion, but on personal belief, and the military has no room for personal belief when it comes to good order and discipline. They received a valid legal order, and the military is really being overly generous even giving them a process to deny a vaccine. Comply, get an authorized exemption by demonstrating why your religion forbids this specific vaccine and not others, or get out. Service is not a right.
All of these religious objectors willingly took other non Covid vaccinations.
Exactly. How many "required shots" does every service member get upon entering the service? We didn't hear any big protest about those shots, which presumably everyone got. Why the opposition now over the Covid vaccine? These marines claim it's a "political purge," which is ironic, since it is they who are making the political (1st Amendment) decision to refuse the vaccine, while the White House is making a public safety decision in the midst of a global pandemic. These marines' excuses and whining are really pathetic in the circumstance.
What is distinct about this vaccine that their religion forbids it, but not all of the other vaccines they received?
If you honestly answer that, you'll come to the conclusion their vaccine denial is probably not based on religion, but on personal belief, and the military has no room for personal belief when it comes to good order and discipline. They received a valid legal order, and the military is really being overly generous even giving them a process to deny a vaccine. Comply, get an authorized exemption by demonstrating why your religion forbids this specific vaccine and not others, or get out. Service is not a right.
This gets to why--while I think it is foolish that the government is not exempting people on the basis that they have some natural immunity from previously having contracted and recovered from the virus--I am not upset that religious exemptions have not been granted (and likely won't).
Generally, government does not get to question whether someone's beliefs are objective or reasonable. But--and though there is some disagreement over whether, if at all, recent Supreme Court case law changed this analysis--the government has generally been allowed to question whether someone's claimed religious beliefs are sincere. On this front, and acknowledging that someone may have had a late "Come to Jesus" (or whatever deity) moment, the fact that one did have no problem getting a whole host of vaccinations when joining the military does not bode well for their argument that their reliefs on the COVID vaccine are sincere, though that is only part of the consideration.
Still, much of this debate need not even get to that point, as the Constitution and constitutional protections do not always apply the same to the military, especially when it comes to troop readiness; and courts likely aren't going to do much second guessing of military policy decisions.
Note, I question how many of those seeking exemption actually want the exemption vs. are actually seeking a quick dismissal (by comparison to the normal process of trying to get out with some kind of honorable conditions discharge) from their service obligation I know if I was hellbent on getting out but didn't want the potential for a dishonorable discharge on my record (e.g. I'm not going to do something to get out that would lead to such a discharge status), vaccine refusal would be something I'd seriously consider. I do believe that you have a fair number of service members who do want to continue serving--but just don't want the vaccine--but I'm still curious of how deep this break down is.
Exactly. How many "required shots" does every service member get upon entering the service? We didn't hear any big protest about those shots, which presumably everyone got. Why the opposition now over the Covid vaccine? These marines claim it's a "political purge," which is ironic, since it is they who are making the political (1st Amendment) decision to refuse the vaccine, while the White House is making a public safety decision in the midst of a global pandemic. These marines' excuses and whining are really pathetic in the circumstance.
While I question whether these service members' beliefs are sincere, I, for one, definitely don't stick up for the administration here. The blanket vaccine requirement--ignoring whether someone has natural immunity from prior infection as an example--seems very much to not be following the science. And, at least speaking for the Navy, prior to the vaccine mandate, there was explicit acknowledgement that those who had COVID had prolonged periods of natural immunity, which is why such people were no longer required to quarantine if they came into close contact with a positive COVID individual within a certain amount of time after they had recovered from COVID themselves. As we come to learn more about the level of natural immunity provided from COVID recovery, the universal vaccine mandate does seem political to an extent and not purely based on public safety. Not to mention that military service members--with the fitness and other health standards that are requirements for entering into and maintaining your status as a service member--are at some of the lowest risk for suffering serious COVID complications.
The blanket vaccine requirement--ignoring whether someone has natural immunity from prior infection as an example--seems very much to not be following the science.
"The science" is trying hard to keep up with this novel virus and its variants. But "natural immunity from prior infection" is apparently not nearly as "immune" as you seem to imply. As reported on Dec 17, 2021:
"The protection afforded by past infection against reinfection with Omicron may be as low as 19%, Imperial College (ICL) said in a statement, noting that the study had not yet been peer reviewed."
So it looks like those who were previously infected may have as many or more breakthrough cases as those who were vaccinated. In other words, mandating that everyone get the vaccine IS following the science, as currently understood.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know if I was hellbent on getting out but didn't want the potential for a dishonorable discharge on my record (e.g. I'm not going to do something to get out that would lead to such a discharge status), vaccine refusal would be something I'd seriously consider. I do believe that you have a fair number of service members who do want to continue serving--but just don't want the vaccine--but I'm still curious of how deep this break down is.