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Old 09-27-2023, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,593 posts, read 7,083,282 times
Reputation: 9332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
Retention is in the toilet because abortion is under attack? I’m not following that line of reasoning. Any military woman or military dependent in America can get an abortion. All they have to do is travel for it if they happen to be in a state that restricts it.

If a woman is saying no to military service solely for the reason that she may have to pay out of pocket for an abortion, then I agree, she shouldn’t serve.

I don’t want my tax dollars paying for their travel or procedure, regardless.

Now if you want to make a counter argument that we would just waste that money on other frivolous things, I would definitely agree with you. I’m against gender studies in Pakistan, and spending billions in Ukraine just as much as I am against the DOD spending money on abortions.

But there are a lot of people on the right, and I am not one of the zealots, but these people are angry enough over abortion that it would stop them from joining the military. They don’t have respect for leaders who support and promote abortion. I consider it a minor issue that I don’t really think much about.

But to them, especially their parents, and we are talking mostly about southern people, they see abortion as a red line.

They see Lloyd Austin say this

“[O]ne in five of our troops are women,” Austin told Tuberville. “And they don’t get a chance to choose where they’re stationed, so almost 80,000 of our women are stationed in places where they don’t have access to non-covered reproductive healthcare.”

First of all, just replacing the word abortion with wording such as “reproductive healthcare”, is highly offensive to many. They see right through it as a ploy meant to minimize the action.

Secondly, they see this as being supportive of abortion just by joining the military.

Again, I don’t see it that way, but many people do.

If you want to fix recruiting and retention, you need to cater to southern conservative white people. If you don’t want to fix it, you continue to demonize them with DEI and enact policies that enrage them.

I believe Lloyd Austin would rather deal with the shortfall than have people he doesn’t like join the military.

Let's get this straight. Tommy Tuberville is holding up promotions because of the military providing transportation and time off to get women's healthcare. Again you as a Republican should be all for privacy in your healthcare. Why are you as republicans for taking away a right to privacy? So yes I am saying that holding up promotions for high lever officers is holding up promotions for younger officers. Being treated like a political pawn is also hurting recruitment and retention. Life conditions and pay. None of the WOKE or DEI BS is causing the drop in people joining the military and or staying in. That is just a lot of hog wash.

I have a book for you to read. Please read it. It is A Sacred Oath by Mark Esper. He was the last SecDef in the Trump administration. It might open your eyes. Mark gets my respect for his service to the nation in uniform and in keeping some sanity in the White House.

 
Old 09-27-2023, 01:57 PM
 
6,091 posts, read 3,330,622 times
Reputation: 10932
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
Let's get this straight. Tommy Tuberville is holding up promotions because of the military providing transportation and time off to get women's healthcare. Again you as a Republican should be all for privacy in your healthcare. Why are you as republicans for taking away a right to privacy? So yes I am saying that holding up promotions for high lever officers is holding up promotions for younger officers. Being treated like a political pawn is also hurting recruitment and retention. Life conditions and pay. None of the WOKE or DEI BS is causing the drop in people joining the military and or staying in. That is just a lot of hog wash.

I have a book for you to read. Please read it. It is A Sacred Oath by Mark Esper. He was the last SecDef in the Trump administration. It might open your eyes. Mark gets my respect for his service to the nation in uniform and in keeping some sanity in the White House.
I don’t consider the nomenclature “women's healthcare” to be synonymous with murdering future humans.

That’s offensive to many people to even suggest such a thing.

I’ve already stated on record that I think Tuberville shouldn’t have held up the promotions. I get where he is coming from, though.

But for you to state that wokeness and DEI is not hurting recruitment or retention is either uninformed or disingenuous.

As far as Esper, I don’t know what to think about him, but I will get more educated on the subject.
 
Old 09-27-2023, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,593 posts, read 7,083,282 times
Reputation: 9332
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I don’t consider the nomenclature “women's healthcare” to be synonymous with murdering future humans.

That’s offensive to many people to even suggest such a thing.

I’ve already stated on record that I think Tuberville shouldn’t have held up the promotions. I get where he is coming from, though.

But for you to state that wokeness and DEI is not hurting recruitment or retention is either uninformed or disingenuous.

As far as Esper, I don’t know what to think about him, but I will get more educated on the subject.
Do you feel you have the right to force a woman to carry a baby to full term that is say born without a brain? Or say any lungs? Do you think you have the right to force that woman to watch as her baby dies in front of her? Is this the kind of murder you are talking about? Please do not presume that you as a man can understand what woman's health needs to involve.
 
Old 09-27-2023, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,593 posts, read 7,083,282 times
Reputation: 9332
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I don’t consider the nomenclature “women's healthcare” to be synonymous with murdering future humans.

That’s offensive to many people to even suggest such a thing.

I’ve already stated on record that I think Tuberville shouldn’t have held up the promotions. I get where he is coming from, though.

But for you to state that wokeness and DEI is not hurting recruitment or retention is either uninformed or disingenuous.

As far as Esper, I don’t know what to think about him, but I will get more educated on the subject.
Oh and for another reason recruitment and retention is in the toilet. Women's healthcare! If a wife of a soldier cannot find a OBGYN in the state they are stationed in they inevitably have to travel. With all the new restrictions by states that have lost their minds, those soldiers are subject to those conditions. Many states OBGYN facilities are disappearing at dramatic rates as the abortion issue creates deadzones for women's healthcare because there are no OBGYN.
 
Old 09-27-2023, 08:39 PM
 
Location: SC
634 posts, read 326,832 times
Reputation: 1465
Abortion has been and will continue to be women's healthcare. A legal abortion is safer than carrying a fetus to term and birthing it, and has been even before our maternal mortality rates started backsliding. If people are offended by that: good. They are probably the same crowd who calls others "snowflakes" and whines about how "triggered" people get. But getting offended at factual terms and descriptions? No... that's not "beta" behavior at all... /s


Considering how many people there are who don't care about women serving in the military and like to complain about how "****** always be getting pregnant to get out of deployments" though, you'd think more people would support abortions for servicemembers who want (or need) them on the basis of it being better for "the mission," deployments, and workloads. There are so many people who love to whine about women getting pregnant and not being able to accomplish the requirements of their job, being non-deployable which forces someone else to go in their place, and getting maternity leave and missing even more work. But the idea of a woman who doesn't want a child at that time going to get an abortion once they realize they are pregnant and not needing any of that other stuff to happen still doesn't sit right with them, presumably because in that instance a woman has made a choice for themselves and is getting what they want, and that MUST NOT be permitted.
 
Old 09-27-2023, 11:57 PM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,286,698 times
Reputation: 45726
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I don’t consider the nomenclature “women's healthcare” to be synonymous with murdering future humans.

That’s offensive to many people to even suggest such a thing.

I’ve already stated on record that I think Tuberville shouldn’t have held up the promotions. I get where he is coming from, though.

But for you to state that wokeness and DEI is not hurting recruitment or retention is either uninformed or disingenuous.

As far as Esper, I don’t know what to think about him, but I will get more educated on the subject.
The problem is a majority of people in the USA do not regard terminating pregnancy at 4 months as "killing a human being". You are perfectly entitled to disagree with that opinion. The problem most of us have is when you and Tuberville try to force that opinion on others by actions like withholding all military promotions. Frankly, the Senate ought to shut Tuberville down and put him in his place. What he is doing is outrageous.

Ohio will hold an election in November on allowing abortion in that state. The results will show that even people in conservative states support abortion rights. The minority will not prevail on this issue.
 
Old 09-28-2023, 04:16 AM
 
6,091 posts, read 3,330,622 times
Reputation: 10932
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The problem is a majority of people in the USA do not regard terminating pregnancy at 4 months as "killing a human being". You are perfectly entitled to disagree with that opinion. The problem most of us have is when you and Tuberville try to force that opinion on others by actions like withholding all military promotions. Frankly, the Senate ought to shut Tuberville down and put him in his place. What he is doing is outrageous.

Ohio will hold an election in November on allowing abortion in that state. The results will show that even people in conservative states support abortion rights. The minority will not prevail on this issue.
I fully understand that your side has won, and will win again, on this issue.

My point is that there are a lot of conservatives who no longer want to serve because the military has become just as political as all the other federal agencies.

They are creating a situation where eventually, only one side of the political aisle will be willing to serve and potentially give their life in defense of the country. It’s by design, and I believe the Democratic leadership considered the mostly conservative force to be dangerous to their power grab.

So they enact policies that enrage conservatives to discourage them from serving. I think their hope is that they will be able to find enough people to serve who consider abortion to be just a reproductive procedure, and find enough people who like the message that white people are evil and minorities deserve special treatment.

If that fails, they can always bring back the draft, I guess.

As for me personally, I’m old school, this is my chosen profession and I will continue on as long as I can and do the best job I can. Compartmentalize. But if I was 18 years old right now, I highly doubt I would join up, though.

But my last point here is this:

1) It doesn’t seem like much of an ask to me to have military members take leave and pay for their own abortions.

2) It doesn’t seem like much of an ask to me to stop with all the DEI stuff and go back to how it used to be.

So since it doesn’t seem like what Tuberville and others are asking for is a bridge too far, that’s why I think this whole thing is designed to discourage conservative young men from serving.
 
Old 09-28-2023, 05:01 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,593 posts, read 7,083,282 times
Reputation: 9332
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I fully understand that your side has won, and will win again, on this issue.

My point is that there are a lot of conservatives who no longer want to serve because the military has become just as political as all the other federal agencies.

They are creating a situation where eventually, only one side of the political aisle will be willing to serve and potentially give their life in defense of the country. It’s by design, and I believe the Democratic leadership considered the mostly conservative force to be dangerous to their power grab.

So they enact policies that enrage conservatives to discourage them from serving. I think their hope is that they will be able to find enough people to serve who consider abortion to be just a reproductive procedure, and find enough people who like the message that white people are evil and minorities deserve special treatment.

If that fails, they can always bring back the draft, I guess.

As for me personally, I’m old school, this is my chosen profession and I will continue on as long as I can and do the best job I can. Compartmentalize. But if I was 18 years old right now, I highly doubt I would join up, though.

But my last point here is this:

1) It doesn’t seem like much of an ask to me to have military members take leave and pay for their own abortions.

2) It doesn’t seem like much of an ask to me to stop with all the DEI stuff and go back to how it used to be.

So since it doesn’t seem like what Tuberville and others are asking for is a bridge too far, that’s why I think this whole thing is designed to discourage conservative young men from serving.
you say we won on this issue, I maintain that we haven't won or lost. We are still struggling to come down from the infection that is DJT. That cameleon has pretended to be for the constitution but is willing to rip it to shreds and people who follow him do not hear that. He wants to jail all his political opponents and all media outlets to be put under his thumb. He is calling for the execution of the Joint Chief General Milley, and some yahoo is likely to take that to heart and try. In what universe is that something a person should be doing?

Look I really respect you and your service. I respect everyone's service here. We (any of us here that have worn the uniform) are a band of brothers and sisters. We are allowed to have political opinions, but we are not allowed to do that while in uniform. You have said that upper ranks in the general staff are politicised. I suggest that we outside have assigned that political bias because are not in the room. I submit General Milley's appology for the incident where he was involved in a political stunt with the CoC holding a bible upside down to make a point politically. He should not have been there wearing his uniform. His appology was the right thing to do.

I feel like Wesley Crusher in STNG with the crew of the ship under a spell.
 
Old 09-30-2023, 08:15 AM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 9,077,788 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
Not my interpretation. Just hard cold facts. Only one republican since Ronald Reagan in 1984 have won the popular vote in presidential elections. The rest have all had to win via electoral college and lose the popular vote by millions.

You seem to want to discount his 6 years (2190 days) of combat tours. You want to pretend that everyone has a political agenda when they accomplish their jobs. You want to believe the twice impeached, 4 times indicted, found liable for sexual assault, and facing 91 federal charges in 4 completely separate districts. Indicted by 48 regular people across all of those states to face serious charges. Especially having nuclear secrets in his bathroom and waving war plans in front of people without a security clearance. If you had even one of those classified documents you and I would be in jail now waiting trial. Ask Airman Teixeira what he is up to now waiting trial in jail for doing just that.

You can do all of that because it is your right. It doesn't mean you are right nor does it mean you are smart. I consider your comments to be ignorant and beneath anyone that has actually served in the military. To want to follow Donald Trump who thinks we in uniform are all chumps and that any wounded among us should be locked away never to be seen from or heard from. So go ahead and follow that failed TV star.
My goodness you were on your fifth cup of Joe that morning.

Classified documents - really? Seriously? You’re going there, next to the corvette, the Biden condo in DC, funded by PennState, the bathroom server in Chappaqua, Sandy Bergers underwear, Petraeus showing classified notebook to his girlfriend, ah the list is long….

Are those charges for Trump in “completely separate districts” or just separate districts? Is the New York case a civil charge; yes, it is.

Looked over the whole thread and not seeing it’s applicability to failed recruitment, just a political rant that belongs in PC&O. Lovely way to start the government shutdown.
 
Old 09-30-2023, 08:19 AM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 9,077,788 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
you say we won on this issue, I maintain that we haven't won or lost. We are still struggling to come down from the infection that is DJT. That cameleon has pretended to be for the constitution but is willing to rip it to shreds and people who follow him do not hear that. He wants to jail all his political opponents and all media outlets to be put under his thumb. He is calling for the execution of the Joint Chief General Milley, and some yahoo is likely to take that to heart and try. In what universe is that something a person should be doing?

Look I really respect you and your service. I respect everyone's service here. We (any of us here that have worn the uniform) are a band of brothers and sisters. We are allowed to have political opinions, but we are not allowed to do that while in uniform. You have said that upper ranks in the general staff are politicised. I suggest that we outside have assigned that political bias because are not in the room. I submit General Milley's appology for the incident where he was involved in a political stunt with the CoC holding a bible upside down to make a point politically. He should not have been there wearing his uniform. His appology was the right thing to do.

I feel like Wesley Crusher in STNG with the crew of the ship under a spell.
Speaking “the never this or that”, Milley should have never called China to tell them he will warn them before we use force. Treasonous.

Did Miley tell his boss that he called China to warn them on any future attacks?
Was it that “above table”? Didn’t think so.
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