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Old 10-19-2023, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Elysium
12,277 posts, read 7,981,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7kkk View Post
As an Army vet with service from '66-72 I was always really worried about city warfare. We had training in that area but doing the real thing?
The idea of going door to door and kicking them in really bothered me.
And in the current conflict with Israel and Gaza, if you kick in the door how do you tell the diffenence between a Palestinian and Hamas.
They are both Palletinian are they not?
So who do you shoot?
I remember going through the field manuals in early 80s, we didn't kick in the doors until after firing burst from M60s through the walls. I bet that changed after the Berlin Wall fell and Panama.
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Old 10-19-2023, 11:50 AM
 
302 posts, read 227,357 times
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Urban warfare involves lots of grenades and is a slow, ugly process.

I suspect that IDF has specialized units for tunnel work. Possibly K9/MWD assets as well.

I would not expect a lot of Youtube videos showing drones dropping grenades on tanks. This will be closer to medieval warfare.

Last edited by Superhornet; 10-19-2023 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 10-19-2023, 02:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
8,378 posts, read 6,745,607 times
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Going back to Stalingrad and fortified partially destroyed buildings the Israelis would have a tough fight. In Stalingrad a Russian Sargent named Pavlov and his platoon held an apartment building 60 days against the Germans who had artillery and air support.
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Old 10-19-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,528 posts, read 6,979,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Going back to Stalingrad and fortified partially destroyed buildings the Israelis would have a tough fight. In Stalingrad a Russian Sargent named Pavlov and his platoon held an apartment building 60 days against the Germans who had artillery and air support.
but that was before the era of drones and laser guided munitions. i bet there will be a lot of use of drones both flying and rolling.
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Old 10-20-2023, 09:35 AM
 
692 posts, read 366,644 times
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I received urban warfare training in the 90s. I do know that drones were not part of my training, so the training standards had to have grown significantly from my time.
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Old 10-21-2023, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
France and the United Kingdom might be among the few with the military might to send a portion to the region but they are the colonial powers who made the maps that set up the mess in the first place. And before the 6 Day war had the role that the US picked up afterwards
In terms of the Middle East there has been violence for thousands of years, and in terms of the end of the over 600 year old Ottoman Empire, the main criticism of any redrawing of the map has been in relation to not creating a single vast Arab nation under the rule of Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz (House of Hashim).

However this could have been problematic in itself, as there are many different Islamic sects such as the Shia and Sunni Muslims, and at the time there was also a dispute between the more moderate Hashemites (House of Hashim - Jordan) and the more fundamentalist Islamic House of Saud (Saudi Arabia), and this could have been a recipe for disaster and civil war, as well as creating an extremely powerful Arab nation under one leader, and this was not seen as a good option, having just rid the region of the Ottoman Empire.

As for Prussia/Germany and the Ottoman Empire they had a long history of close relations and cooperation, starting in 1761 when the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Prussia (Germany) signed a treaty of friendship and trade, with the later appointment of the first Ottoman Ambassador.

These ever increasing close relations and treaties were then followed by an increase in the military cooperation during the reigns of Mahmud II and Abdulhamid II, as well as the alliance during the First World War, the two countries also cooperated in important investments such as the construction of the Istanbul-Baghdad railway.

The Ottomans were always going to be on the side of their historic Prussian/German allies in relation to taking sides in WW1, and it should be noted that this part of the world has relations with Germany that are akin to relations between France and North Africa, with many millions of Turkish living and working in Germany today.

In terms of Britain it was not even involved in most of the petty European politics that led to WW1 and only decided to become involved due to the threat of Germany invading Belgium and France, and positioning a large naval force off the British coastline with German naval bases in Belgium directly opposite Britain.

Britain was far happier during it's so called 'splendid isolationism' in relation to Europe, and in terms of the Ottoman Empire that had far more historical links with other European nations rather than Britain.

As for the Turkish Ottoman Empire following the defeat of the Central Powers with the help of the Arabs themselves, the Palestine region became subject to to the equivalent of what would now be called a UN peace keeping force (then a League of Nations Mandate) and under this unpopular mandate, Britain took temporary responsibility for Iraq, Transjordan (Jordan), and Palestine, whilst Syria and Lebanon were the responsibility of the French, who had close links to these areas, as well as with parts of North Africa.

Britain carried out the near impossible Palestine mandate to the best of it's abilities despite any decision being difficult (and always upsetting one side or the other), especially when dealing with the opposing Jewish and Arab communities., and mistakes were made, with over 750 deaths in relation to British soldiers and police who were murdered by Jewish and Arab terrorist groups, and this is besides the fact that during WW1 it was British and Commonwealth troops who mainly fought to secure the areas independence from the Ottoman's in the first place.

As for the deeply unpopular Palestine Mandate, Britain left following WW2, warning the US and UN that the Arab position needed to be considered in any talks, however this was ignored, and Britain became one of the few nations to abstain from the UN vote rather than upset other Western allies.

It is this UN sanctioned partition of Palestine in order to create a Jewish homeland in Israel that has been most problematic in terms of the middle east and Britain actually made the UN aware of the potential issues and problems relating to the area, given it's experience as part of the Palestine Mandate.

In terms of events today, they are nothing to do with Britain, and Britain should merely offer humanitarian aid and try to to encourage peace, although in terms of Hamas, they are an Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist organisation and are against any form of peaceful negotiations. I also suggest that the US adopts a similar policy and tries to stay out of yet another conflict and the waste of yet more of it's brave service personnels lives.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-21-2023 at 06:54 PM..
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Old 10-21-2023, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
37,218 posts, read 60,933,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
... In terms of events today, they are nothing to do with Britain, and Britain should merely offer humanitarian aid and try to to encourage peace, although in terms of Hamas, they are an Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist organisation and are against any form of peaceful negotiations. I also suggest that the US adopts a similar policy and tries to stay out of yet more conflicts.
I doubt the US will remain neutral, or merely offer humanitarian aid, trying to encourage peace.

We have two aircraft carriers on station to maintain air superiority and boots on the ground in Jordan.

I am confident that our Navy can maintain complete superiority out in Blue Water, but I doubt our abilities in shallow coastal waters. Ten years ago TPTB decided to toss loads of money to establish littoral vessels, and that effort has shown to be utter failure.

Freedom LCS-1, Fort Worth LCS-3, Milwaukee LCS-5, Detroit LCS-7, Little Rock LCS-9, Sioux City LCS-11,
have all been such utter failures the only thing keeping them from being melted down into razor blades is the long waiting list to get into the shipyard for Decomm.

Wichita LCS-13, Billings LCS-15, Indianapolis LCS-17, St. Louis LCS-19, Minneapolis-Saint Paul LCS-21,
Cooperstown LCS-23, Marinette LCS-25, Nantucket LCS-27, Beloit LCS-29, All remain on active duty, but only because the waiting list to get into Decomm is so long.

And the Cleveland LCS-31 has not even been commissioned yet.

If we had vessels designed for Littoral combat, they would be on-scene as we speak.

I listed the 'Freedom class' vessels there is also the 'Independence' class vessels with similar ships, hulls, all so far have been failures.

We have thrown a huge amount of money at two designs that have not proven sea worthy and will never be ready for combat.

Which leaves these two carriers in an odd position. Do we assume 'blue water' rules?

Or will some other tactic arise that will present a threat to our carriers?



Alas now is time for the popcorn and whiskey.
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
I doubt the US will remain neutral, or merely offer humanitarian aid, trying to encourage peace.
I can't speak for the US as I am not American, however I would suggest that the US avoids some of the mistakes made in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Old 10-22-2023, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Lincoln County Road or Armageddon
4,972 posts, read 7,157,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Going back to Stalingrad and fortified partially destroyed buildings the Israelis would have a tough fight. In Stalingrad a Russian Sargent named Pavlov and his platoon held an apartment building 60 days against the Germans who had artillery and air support.

Part of Germany's problem at Stalingrad was re-supply and re-enforcement. Stalingrad was/is 3000 km away from Germany while Gaza is literally a stone's throw away from Israel.
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Old 10-22-2023, 05:25 PM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 8,972,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I can't speak for the US as I am not American, however I would suggest that the US avoids some of the mistakes made in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Mistakes such as surrendering in Afghanistan, sure. Are you suggesting the U.S. not openly support Israel?
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