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Old 10-23-2023, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
Mistakes such as surrendering in Afghanistan, sure. Are you suggesting the U.S. not openly support Israel?
The US can decide on such issues itself.

However I personally think it's important to differentiate the plight of the people of Gaza and the views of Hamas.

Hamas which governs Gaza, is a Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organisation, and believes in many of the same jihadist views, values and aims as other Islamic terrorist groups such as ISIS or Al Qaeda, and it also believes in a similar warped interpretation of the Quran.

Hamas won't negotiate, despite Israel's willingness to explore different options including the two-state solution (and other such options), and the recent attacks against Israel seem to have had more to do with Iranian opposition to a deal between Israel, the US and the Saudi's than to do with the plight of the people of Gaza, and have just led to yet more suffering.

Hamas has actually caused a lot of the suffering in Gaza through their actions, and this should also not be forgotten, and I would have thought given the Islamic fundamentalist terror attacks in the US on 9/11, that Americans would be the first to appreciate this fact.

Personally I would condemn all violence on all sides, and support humanitarian aid, as well as supporting possible fresh elections in Gaza in the hope that Hamas can finally be ousted and a more moderate leadership put in place, in order that meaningful discussions and negotiations could one day take place.
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Old 10-23-2023, 06:43 AM
 
Location: U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
The US can decide on such issues itself.

However I personally think it's important to differentiate the plight of the people of Gaza and the views of Hamas.

Hamas which governs Gaza, is a Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organisation, and believes in many of the same jihadist views, values and aims as other Islamic terrorist groups such as ISIS or Al Qaeda, and it also believes in a similar warped interpretation of the Quran.

Hamas won't negotiate, despite Israel's willingness to explore different options including the two-state solution (and other such options), and the recent attacks against Israel seem to have had more to do with Iranian opposition to a deal between Israel, the US and the Saudi's than to do with the plight of the people of Gaza, and have just led to yet more suffering.

Hamas has actually caused a lot of the suffering in Gaza through their actions, and this should also not be forgotten, and I would have thought given the Islamic fundamentalist terror attacks in the US on 9/11, that Americans would be the first to appreciate this fact.

Personally I would condemn all violence on all sides, and support humanitarian aid, as well as supporting possible fresh elections in Gaza in the hope that Hamas can finally be ousted and a more moderate leadership put in place, in order that meaningful discussions and negotiations could one day take place.
Wow. So much naivety to unpack. Based on this post, Arafat is not turning in his grave.

Didn’t read the part about bringing Hamas to justice; as they are acting as a military force.
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Old 10-23-2023, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
Wow. So much naivety to unpack. Based on this post, Arafat is not turning in his grave.

Didn’t read the part about bringing Hamas to justice; as they are acting as a military force.
The US can please itself, as it's on a roll in terms of pointless wars.

In terms of Britain and other European countries there is little appetite in terms of another US led conflict.

As for bringing Hamas to justice, how do you suggest we do that, as most of their operatives are embedded among the civilian population.

Whilst in terms of justice, the US doesn't even adhere to International Courts and most international law.

It also should be noted that the Iraq War is now deemed a war crime, along with the hundreds of thousands of civilians who killed, including in events deemed to be genocide, whilst Afghanistan turned in to a complete mess after the US withdrew without informing the Afghan authorities or close NATO allies with forces in the region.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-23-2023 at 08:57 AM..
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Old 10-23-2023, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,528 posts, read 6,979,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
Wow. So much naivety to unpack. Based on this post, Arafat is not turning in his grave.

Didn’t read the part about bringing Hamas to justice; as they are acting as a military force.
Actually I would say that it is Isreal's right to see that justice is done. That does not however allow it to bomb indiscriminately. It is not their right to tell 1.5 million people to move out of the way while they are bombing the city already. Israel has a right to be completely outraged, but sometimes acting out of rage causes us to loose sight of what is really wrong. I am not sure how much longer Israel will be able to send out their rage.

But let's see if Beebee can do something that he has never been able to show. Civility. I pray that our pal Isreal doesn't do so much that they get us into the middle of a wider war.



Ytzhak Rabin said before he was assassinated.

Quote:
We must fight terrorism as if there's no peace process and work to achieve peace as if there's no terror
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Old 10-23-2023, 08:06 PM
 
Location: U.S.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
Actually I would say that it is Isreal's right to see that justice is done. That does not however allow it to bomb indiscriminately. It is not their right to tell 1.5 million people to move out of the way while they are bombing the city already. Israel has a right to be completely outraged, but sometimes acting out of rage causes us to loose sight of what is really wrong. I am not sure how much longer Israel will be able to send out their rage.

But let's see if Beebee can do something that he has never been able to show. Civility. I pray that our pal Isreal doesn't do so much that they get us into the middle of a wider war.

Ytzhak Rabin said before he was assassinated.
It’s ironic comparing now to going back to late September 2001 and nobody on the planet was denouncing the U.S. preparations to invade Afghanistan.

Israel is not going to carpet-bomb Gaza. Trying to start drawing guardrails on offensive operations from the peanut gallery is as crazy as it sounds. Only in the last couple decades has the left talked about fighting proportionally.
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Old 10-24-2023, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
It’s ironic comparing now to going back to late September 2001 and nobody on the planet was denouncing the U.S. preparations to invade Afghanistan.

Israel is not going to carpet-bomb Gaza. Trying to start drawing guardrails on offensive operations from the peanut gallery is as crazy as it sounds. Only in the last couple decades has the left talked about fighting proportionally.
You are incorrect that no one denounced the US on that. There were several countries that did. Not necessarily our best of pals though. That being said, the trouble is we turned that into a forever war until we finally stopped trying to nation build.

There was outrage when we went to the war I was sent off to. Iraq invasion gave us ISIS and another long lasting war. We went after people with rage and we set off other problems. So yeah we have had our issues. I just hope that our pal Israel will learn from our mistakes.
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Old 10-24-2023, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
You are incorrect that no one denounced the US on that. There were several countries that did. Not necessarily our best of pals though. That being said, the trouble is we turned that into a forever war until we finally stopped trying to nation build.
There was outrage when we went to the war I was sent off to. Iraq invasion gave us ISIS and another long lasting war. We went after people with rage and we set off other problems. So yeah we have had our issues. I just hope that our pal Israel will learn from our mistakes.



Most countries are concentrating efforts in relation to humanitarian aid and possible de-escalation if possible, however in terms of becoming militarily involved, it's a region that has already seen a lot of violence and too much bloodshed, including plenty of British blood, and I think most nations want to tread carefully when considering any further support.

Around 880,000 British soldiers died in WW1, with around as many over 200,000 British casualties fighting the Ottomans in campaigns such as the Mesopotamian campaign and the Gallipoli campaign. Total British military deaths in the Mesopotamian Campaign were 38,842 with numerous more missing, wounded or captured, whilst in terms of Gallipoli 31,389 British soldiers were killed, with 9,708 missing and PoW's, and 78,749 wounded.

Britain went on to carry out the near impossible League of Nations Palestine mandate to the best of it's abilities despite any decision being difficult, and despite mistakes being made, and despite the fact that the violence was beyond anything that Britain had expected, and there were even Anti-Jewish riots back in British cities.

Some 100,000 British soldiers (mainly conscripts) were stationed in the area, during the height of the violence, in a desperate attempt to try and quell the violence and keep the peace, and over 750 British soldiers and police lost their lives to Jewish and Arab terrorists, with some British soldiers even being executed and there bodies put on display, leading to Anti-Jewish riots across a number of British cities in 1947.

As for the very unpopular Palestine Mandate, Britain left following WW2 something that was agreed by the United Nations which had now replaced the League of Nations.

Britain's experience in the region, led it to believe that the Arab position needed to be considered in any talks regarding Palestine and the creation of a Jewish homeland, however this was ignored, and Britain became one of the few nations to abstain from the UN vote rather than upset other Western allies including the US.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-24-2023 at 06:59 AM..
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Old 10-24-2023, 01:22 PM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 8,972,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
You are incorrect that no one denounced the US on that. There were several countries that did. Not necessarily our best of pals though. That being said, the trouble is we turned that into a forever war until we finally stopped trying to nation build.

There was outrage when we went to the war I was sent off to. Iraq invasion gave us ISIS and another long lasting war. We went after people with rage and we set off other problems. So yeah we have had our issues. I just hope that our pal Israel will learn from our mistakes.
So Cuba and North Korea? Come on, gives us some examples, you were there!

Who was against the U.S. on invading Afghanistan in late September 2001?
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Old 10-24-2023, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Central Massachusetts
6,528 posts, read 6,979,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
So Cuba and North Korea? Come on, gives us some examples, you were there!

Who was against the U.S. on invading Afghanistan in late September 2001?
First you misread my post but that is totally just your style. Let me set you straight. I said there were objections to the war I was sent off in. I never went to Afghanistan. I said I went to Iraq OIF1 and 2. That meant I was there in the beginning so I heard it. So please stop thinking you are so cleaver.
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Old 10-24-2023, 07:19 PM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 8,972,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsoldier1976 View Post
First you misread my post but that is totally just your style. Let me set you straight. I said there were objections to the war I was sent off in. I never went to Afghanistan. I said I went to Iraq OIF1 and 2. That meant I was there in the beginning so I heard it. So please stop thinking you are so cleaver.
You misread your own posts. Anybody reading your two earlier posts would even conclude you were referring or replying about Afghanistan. Nobody said Iraq. Also when you mention “forever war”, everyone’s initial implication is Afghanistan first. We’ve been in Afghanistan earlier than Iraq 2.0 and were in LONGER than Iraq 2.0.

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/10341...ve-just-shrunk

But don’t take offense. No games here. Regarding AFGHANISTAN, which countries had issues with the U.S. invasion in Afghanistan?

My comparison to Israel is the U.S. and AFGHANISTAN, since the U.S. went into Afghanistan as a result of “their” 9-11. Israel is getting read to invade the Gaza Strip, in response to “their 9-11”.
This is the parallel. I couldn’t be any clearer in my last 3 posts.

What’s not lost on confusion is the original question of which countries had an issues with the U.S. invading Afghanistan in late 2001? Realize it may sound like a broken record but reading comprehension is tough. Feels a bit like the history forum here.
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