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Old 11-10-2023, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,425 posts, read 13,660,350 times
Reputation: 18620

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
Beats getting shot at, but who volunteers for the service looking for a career as a salesman? Especially when your product is to send you somewhere to get shot at.
Remember the line from Battlestar Galactica when Cally and others were trapped down on the planet and the shooting started? "I joined up to get money for dental school!" (or something like that)

Reality has been a lot like that, where people have signed up to get the benefits and avoid the risk.

As far as recruitment duty being nice without being shot out, that's not always the case.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/17/us/re...cks/index.html

If someone wants to protest the military, one way or another, a recruitment station makes an attractive target.
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Old 11-10-2023, 12:25 PM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 8,972,758 times
Reputation: 5927
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Remember the line from Battlestar Galactica when Cally and others were trapped down on the planet and the shooting started? "I joined up to get money for dental school!" (or something like that)

Reality has been a lot like that, where people have signed up to get the benefits and avoid the risk.

As far as recruitment duty being nice without being shot out, that's not always the case.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/17/us/re...cks/index.html

If someone wants to protest the military, one way or another, a recruitment station makes an attractive target.
If you’ve been to a recruiting office recently, they are about as secure as possible with guards. Windows are blocked, doors with cipher locks have two sets as a pass through. No walk-ins, call ahead.
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Old 11-10-2023, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,425 posts, read 13,660,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsonkk View Post
If you’ve been to a recruiting office recently, they are about as secure as possible with guards. Windows are blocked, doors with cipher locks have two sets as a pass through. No walk-ins, call ahead.
Thank you.

No, I have not been to one ever, just know we used it as the site, background for tactical desktop exercise (wasn't my exercise, I was an observer) over a decade ago.....and as the news article points out, they have been targets in the past.
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Old 11-10-2023, 01:12 PM
 
Location: U.S.
9,512 posts, read 8,972,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Thank you.

No, I have not been to one ever, just know we used it as the site, background for tactical desktop exercise (wasn't my exercise, I was an observer) over a decade ago.....and as the news article points out, they have been targets in the past.
Millington, TN comes to mind. (North of Memphis, area near navy base ).
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Old 11-10-2023, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,462 posts, read 17,888,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
Perhaps to look better in the eyes of potential recruits.
Also probably to save face with those still in. We get that, being military, we agree to abide by lawful orders issued by superiors. This includes detailing and deployments. But for what is a "shore duty" assignment (using Navy lingo here, but basically referring to what is considered non-operational--if still undesirably by many in this instance) generally has not been handled this way in my experience. It's one thing to follow orders, but it's another thing to create atmospheres that are conducive to people wanting to stay in. Put differently, if the army (or any other branch) does not handle these issues right, they may very well have an even bigger recruiting issue.
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Old 11-10-2023, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,425 posts, read 13,660,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Also probably to save face with those still in. We get that, being military, we agree to abide by lawful orders issued by superiors. This includes detailing and deployments. But for what is a "shore duty" assignment (using Navy lingo here, but basically referring to what is considered non-operational--if still undesirably by many in this instance) generally has not been handled this way in my experience. It's one thing to follow orders, but it's another thing to create atmospheres that are conducive to people wanting to stay in. Put differently, if the army (or any other branch) does not handle these issues right, they may very well have an even bigger recruiting issue.
Should that be the mission, though?

I remember the "insanity" of the Cold War of where leaves were curtailed in the name of readiness and to look good at any time. Example of readiness: a ship was going through its special weapons inspection around the holiday period. To ensure maximum effort to pass, anyone on a security team had their leave cut into and had to stay on with the ship during the inspection period. When the inspection was suddenly cancelled due to a change in the SALT treaties, one saw a massive rush of sailors with their luggage to the quarterdeck, to get that leave they could, that remained of what they had requested.

In another example of readiness, what was promised during the 2 Christmas leave periods after a deployment was a day of watch and 2 days off. What happened in the 2nd leave period when first leave section was back was that they found out they couldn't get work done so they switched it to a day of watch, a day of duty, and 1 day off.

On a side note, lesson to the wise, take your leave in the second period so you don't get caught up with the insanity when the Captain is back.

An example of looking good. The fleet admiral is touring the port on his barge and he is returning to shore by stepping on the stern of a ship tied up to the tender for maintenance so he can cross ships to the pier. Another holiday period but suddenly, everyone on leave had theirs canceled to have all hands to spruce up the ship in the week before the admiral arrives.

Now, one can always say, "Well, this or that Captain is a bad people manager," but on the other side of the coin.......who is getting the job done? What's the mission, to make the people happy or to have a ship able to fight?

Consider the flick "Twelve O'Clock High" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041996...m_0_q_12%2520o Sure, a fictional flick.....that is shown to officer candidates as a training aid. There is Colonel Davenport who puts his men first and General Savage who is there to bombs on target. Is this a case of one man being a people leader and one being a mission leader?

No.......it's a case of one man getting the job done and one who isn't.
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Old 11-10-2023, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,462 posts, read 17,888,365 times
Reputation: 34163
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Should that be the mission, though?

I remember the "insanity" of the Cold War of where leaves were curtailed in the name of readiness and to look good at any time. Example of readiness: a ship was going through its special weapons inspection around the holiday period. To ensure maximum effort to pass, anyone on a security team had their leave cut into and had to stay on with the ship during the inspection period. When the inspection was suddenly cancelled due to a change in the SALT treaties, one saw a massive rush of sailors with their luggage to the quarterdeck, to get that leave they could, that remained of what they had requested.

In another example of readiness, what was promised during the 2 Christmas leave periods after a deployment was a day of watch and 2 days off. What happened in the 2nd leave period when first leave section was back was that they found out they couldn't get work done so they switched it to a day of watch, a day of duty, and 1 day off.

On a side note, lesson to the wise, take your leave in the second period so you don't get caught up with the insanity when the Captain is back.

An example of looking good. The fleet admiral is touring the port on his barge and he is returning to shore by stepping on the stern of a ship tied up to the tender for maintenance so he can cross ships to the pier. Another holiday period but suddenly, everyone on leave had theirs canceled to have all hands to spruce up the ship in the week before the admiral arrives.

Now, one can always say, "Well, this or that Captain is a bad people manager," but on the other side of the coin.......who is getting the job done? What's the mission, to make the people happy or to have a ship able to fight?

Consider the flick "Twelve O'Clock High" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041996...m_0_q_12%2520o Sure, a fictional flick.....that is shown to officer candidates as a training aid. There is Colonel Davenport who puts his men first and General Savage who is there to bombs on target. Is this a case of one man being a people leader and one being a mission leader?

No.......it's a case of one man getting the job done and one who isn't.
I think there's some merit in trying to create a good quality of life via reasonable expectations, etc., for the force already serving, especially if it promises to help increase retention and lead to fewer recruiting issues down the road. People who feel shortchanged and that their leadership don't care about them may very well offer give less than their all to the mission and get out as soon as they can, depriving the ranks of experience, etc. I think that's just human nature. But there's a a balance required, of course, especially given the function and role of the military.

I don't see why we can't have leaders value both people and mission. My motto is people first, mission always. From my view, while mission is "always," putting people first will help ensure that mission is accomplished. Not just for inspection purposes, but for the long run. And I argue that mission should be smartly laid out and identified; some things in the "mission" category should probably be refocused
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Old 11-10-2023, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,164 posts, read 9,104,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
Perhaps to look better in the eyes of potential recruits.
The army caring about its image? That's a good one. That would be the Air Force and Space Force.

The greatest words ever spoken to someone while serving: no one forced you to enlist.

Current troops know what they signed up for, and being told to do something they don't want to do at the last minute, is part of the job.
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Old 11-10-2023, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,277 posts, read 7,981,692 times
Reputation: 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
The army caring about its image? That's a good one. That would be the Air Force and Space Force.

The greatest words ever spoken to someone while serving: no one forced you to enlist.

Current troops know what they signed up for, and being told to do something they don't want to do at the last minute, is part of the job.
Well if you are promising a certain job , or being posted with your friend to a recruit then to see your recruiter involuntarily assigned makes it harder for that recruiter.
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Old 11-11-2023, 09:01 AM
 
5,895 posts, read 3,163,779 times
Reputation: 10615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
Well if you are promising a certain job , or being posted with your friend to a recruit then to see your recruiter involuntarily assigned makes it harder for that recruiter.
Most people who were involuntarily sent to recruiter duty will meet the standard. Some won’t, and they will either be returned to their MOS or AFSC, quit, or get administratively discharged if they have disciplinary problems.

Then the next batch of people will be involuntarily selected.

Either the all voluntary service will continue as is, with enough recruits to meet the force strength goals, or we will move to conscription.

Many countries around the world, about 40%, have some form of conscription. The US has a policy where a military draft is authorized, we just haven’t implemented it in 50 years.

I suspect we will see a draft in about 10 or 20 years if the recruitment numbers continue to decrease.

Will this be a fair draft? Of course not, we are a corrupt nation. So only poor, able bodied people will get drafted. Rich families will get deferments, just like they used to get.
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