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Old 11-20-2023, 12:33 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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There is a big difference between "America entering a war" and America homeland being attacked. Whether it's Korea, Vietnam, Ukraine, or Israel/Hamas, Americans were/are not defending their country, but simply supporting another country as determined by the current administration. After the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, Americans flocked to enlist, in fact 134,000 did so.
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Old 11-20-2023, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
There is a big difference between "America entering a war" and America homeland being attacked. Whether it's Korea, Vietnam, Ukraine, or Israel/Hamas, Americans were/are not defending their country, but simply supporting another country as determined by the current administration. After the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, Americans flocked to enlist, in fact 134,000 did so.
Well, fighting a war where one has been attacked SUCKS!......because it is your land that is getting trashed then. Your harbors mined, your land littered with AP munitions, your soils having been carpet bombed, etc..

It may not be noble or even "honorable" (by those who say such) but it is quite wise that if you have identified your enemy, to go to him and attack him there, trash his land.
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Old 11-20-2023, 01:36 PM
 
28,660 posts, read 18,761,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Well, fighting a war where one has been attacked SUCKS!......because it is your land that is getting trashed then. Your harbors mined, your land littered with AP munitions, your soils having been carpet bombed, etc..

It may not be noble or even "honorable" (by those who say such) but it is quite wise that if you have identified your enemy, to go to him and attack him there, trash his land.
In the case of the US, it's highly unlikely to be an attack on the US mainland by a state actor, but as with WWII, an attack on some far-flung US territory or ally.

Although there's been a lot of wingnut talk about a draft with the current Gaza war, I don't believe a draft is going to happen for the sake of any current US ally.
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Old 11-20-2023, 01:39 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
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Quote:
Report: Americans don't want to fight for their country anymore
Wouldn't much matter what "most voters" say.
They need a few hundred thousand willing souls who can pass the physical and so forth. The rest of the people can stay home.
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Old 11-20-2023, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
In the case of the US, it's highly unlikely to be an attack on the US mainland by a state actor, but as with WWII, an attack on some far-flung US territory or ally.

Although there's been a lot of wingnut talk about a draft with the current Gaza war, I don't believe a draft is going to happen for the sake of any current US ally.
Since Gaza is in the Middle East, that could be addressed as a prospective preemptive strike area for preservation of the US.

For all the oil in the Middle East, what if it came into the hands of someone who cut all shipments off to the US and collapsed our economy by calling all our loans (that's cancelling the petrodollar or world reserve currency from the dollar, right?). Do we wait for it to actually happen or do we take action before it happens?

NOW, I don't know if that would happen or not. I am just saying in our modern world that waiting for the other guy to attack your land, so then you can say you have clear evidence to go to war, is rather stupid.
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Old 11-20-2023, 02:55 PM
 
28,660 posts, read 18,761,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
In the case of the US, it's highly unlikely to be an attack on the US mainland by a state actor, but as with WWII, an attack on some far-flung US territory or ally.

Although there's been a lot of wingnut talk about a draft with the current Gaza war, I don't believe a draft is going to happen for the sake of any current US ally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Since Gaza is in the Middle East, that could be addressed as a prospective preemptive strike area for preservation of the US.

For all the oil in the Middle East, what if it came into the hands of someone who cut all shipments off to the US and collapsed our economy by calling all our loans (that's cancelling the petrodollar or world reserve currency from the dollar, right?). Do we wait for it to actually happen or do we take action before it happens?

NOW, I don't know if that would happen or not. I am just saying in our modern world that waiting for the other guy to attack your land, so then you can say you have clear evidence to go to war, is rather stupid.
A pre-emptive strike even under those conditions would not call for a general draft.

And I would be highly surprised if the US launched a "pre-emptive" strike on a country before it actually cut off all oil shipments to the US.

A military invasion of a Middle Eastern nation would not be spurred by OPEC reneging on the petrodollar deal (which likely would not collapse the US economy, at least no more than the Covid lockdown did), and Congress is not going to pass a new general draft law (yes, it would take an act of Congress) just for American troops to occupy the entire Middle East for eternity. That would be the fastest possible route to "Green America" getting pushed through Congress.
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Old 11-20-2023, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
A pre-emptive strike even under those conditions would not call for a general draft.

And I would be highly surprised if the US launched a "pre-emptive" strike on a country before it actually cut off all oil shipments to the US.

A military invasion of a Middle Eastern nation would not be spurred by OPEC reneging on the petrodollar deal (which likely would not collapse the US economy, at least no more than the Covid lockdown did), and Congress is not going to pass a new general draft law (yes, it would take an act of Congress) just for American troops to occupy the entire Middle East for eternity. That would be the fastest possible route to "Green America" getting pushed through Congress.
Well, I am not talking draft......just waiting to go to war only after the other guy attacks your land is stupid. It may have been sound a few centuries back but it isn't now.


Wherever it is, waiting for the other guy to attack and get your land trashed in the process is just plain insane.
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Old 11-21-2023, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,127 posts, read 13,424,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-C View Post
[/b]


Vietnam was a 25 year effort that began with Truman - even if we didn't call it that for the first decades that it was a covert half-baked attempt by Truman/Eisenhower/Kennedy to stick a finger in the levee to stem the flood of dominos. The rest of SEATO left us holding the bag. But at least we showed up. Hope NATO doesn't wind up the same way ultimately.

Vietnam didn't require a draft. Necessitywas manufactured due to poor planning and general administration-level incompetence through the 50s. We chose to fight the war the way the British chose to fight us in the American Revolution, or the North started out fighting the Confederates. With similar results. Like the French at Dien Ben Phu, yuck yuck. But even Truman said "we can't win it". Defeatism from the outset by the civilian leadership was definitely an ominous signal, despite the lip service to dominos and democracy.

We fought Vietnam as a defensive war which, had we done it this way against the Axis in WW2, we would have lost miserably. Instead of taking it to the NV in Hanoi with all the power and technology at our disposal, we chose to try to duke it out in the jungles, squads and platoons defending the South against guerilla fighters with fanatical dedication who recognized no rules, while we did our best to alienate our own allies. We were scared of the Chinese jumping in supposedly. We required no commitment from the remainder of the SEATO pact to HONOR THEIR COMMITMENT. The French just abandoned us to the fight and withdrew. And then we did NOTHING to keep up constant pressure on Uncle Ho to give up. We just acted in spurts of commitment followed by stalemate.

End result: We had all but run the NVA out of the entire county when we gave up (sound familiar) on the "unwinnable war", pulled out willy nilly and then did our best to clean up the chaos piece meal and weasel out of the promises we made to the SV government that we would continue to supply them arms and money to fight alone. That was a disgraceful Congressional failure swept under the rug. We listen to the armchair quarterbacks itemized our "failures" in Vietnam but notice how they overlook the really awful things we did.

Like how we've already gotten past the chaos of the Afghan withdrawal; civilians falling off the C-17. And the people we left behind to the Taliban whims.

The USA has really developed a penchant for quitting and running away since the baby boomer years. It's sad. And it's also seldom mentioned by all the neocons and globalists wanting to warmonger every few years. And what's all the waffling gotten us? Our enemies STILL call us aggressors and imperialists bent on taking over the planet. Even as we run away and pay them off.

In terms of the Revolutionary War, Britain a naval power and with commitments elsewhere struggled and a third of British forces were paid German Hessian mercenaries.

Britain generally didn't keep a large standing Army, and most of the Empire defended itself, for instance Britain never had more than 70,000 troops in India, a vast country with a population of over 300 million at the time. The local trading companies such as the Dutch East India Company had their own Army's and Naval forces, as did the later Maharajas (Local Princes) who had their own regional Army's, which eventually morphed in to the Indian Army, and a similar principle was deployed throughout the Empire.

In terms of Vietnam, it was a mess and both Britain and France warned the US at the time, with Britain not becoming involved because we had already tried to keep the peace in Vietnam following WW2 and couldn't wait to hand the place back to the French.

It's also worth noting that Britain was already involved in a number of other smaller conflicts from Cyprus, Malaya, Aden etc etc. Britain did however lets the US use British facilities on Hong Kong and many US service personnel enjoyed R&R in Hong Kong during the Vietnam War, whilst Britain offered the US supplies and intelligence etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w-cv2CJbfI

Last edited by Brave New World; 11-21-2023 at 06:39 AM..
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Old 11-21-2023, 09:01 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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I was stationed at the American Embassy in Singapore during part of the Vietnam War. The Brits had a jungle warfare school in Kota Bahru Malaysia nearby that some US forces attended. They would come through the embassy and check in with the military attaches office before training started.

Someone mentioned US forces doing R&R in then British Hong Kong. We had the same set up in Singapore. We leased four existing hotels for guys on leave, 3 for enlisted and one for officers. And the Brits let US forces use their recreational facilities.

Things could get somewhat out of hand at times. You would have US Navy ships from the 7th Fleet off Vietnam coming in for shore leave, our troops from Vietnam, Brit Army, Navy and Air Force people. All mingling together. Too much Tiger beer and some wild bar room fights. And the beautiful Singapore women.

Last edited by msgsing; 11-21-2023 at 09:28 AM..
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Old 11-21-2023, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,656 posts, read 13,961,086 times
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Does the prospect of being a Vet, part of that community, fit anywhere into this?

I was at a service project, diving, for Vets the other weekend. I was there primarily to help out as a dive leader, to work with beginning divers who weren't Vets, but when the organizer said that practically everyone there was a Vet, there was that feeling of pride of being able to count myself as part of that group.

So does the prospect of joining that group have any motivation......or do you have to be in before you know the want?
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