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Old 01-28-2009, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Fly-over country.
1,765 posts, read 6,247,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nauticadon View Post
I keep reading these comments about Israel. Can someone please explain to me what makes Israel's military so formidable? They haven't fought a single, organized army in almost 40 years. Aside from billions in American military hardware, what makes them so tough?
Nothing. It's all hype. Don't get me wrong, I support them and their cause personally, but "pound for pound" they aren't that great.

I think what makes them stand out is the "national will" displayed by their leaders and citizens and executed by their military using US hardware.

The restraint they show is amazing as well.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caution View Post
Nothing. It's all hype. Don't get me wrong, I support them and their cause personally, but "pound for pound" they aren't that great.

I think what makes them stand out is the "national will" displayed by their leaders and citizens and executed by their military using US hardware.

The restraint they show is amazing as well.

Are you sure? Have you seen thier pilots perform at red flag? Have you see thier special ops guys? These guys are very well trained, have very good equipment and most importantly have resolve to get the mission done. I would most certainly not call them over-hyped by any means.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
403 posts, read 1,016,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedaddicted View Post
Are you sure? Have you seen thier pilots perform at red flag? Have you see thier special ops guys? These guys are very well trained, have very good equipment and most importantly have resolve to get the mission done. I would most certainly not call them over-hyped by any means.
They're also untested. It's easy to look good during training missions or fighting against Palestinians. How they would fare against an actual standing army remains to be seen.

And for 3 billion a year in American taxpayer dollars that equipment better be very good.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nauticadon View Post
They're also untested. It's easy to look good during training missions or fighting against Palestinians. How they would fare against an actual standing army remains to be seen.

And for 3 billion a year in American taxpayer dollars that equipment better be very good.
No its not "easy" to look good in training missions. The Pilots at Red Flag for example are some of the best in the world, and I've seen many of them get sent home early or grounded. Its not a basic training scenario by a long shot, and neither are some of the other excercises these guys go through. They have some very YOUNG pilots that fly circles around some guys that have been flying for a long time. Are they all that good, NO but no one is.

As far as thier Special Forces guys are FAR from untested. Just because you dont know about them or read about them in the paper or see them on CNN doesnt mean they are untested by any means. They are VERY well trained and battle tested. Trust me....
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,021,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nauticadon View Post
I keep reading these comments about Israel. Can someone please explain to me what makes Israel's military so formidable? They haven't fought a single, organized army in almost 40 years. Aside from billions in American military hardware, what makes them so tough?
Well for starters the billions of US $ do go a long way in making them tough. But they are well-trained, which is apparent from every conflict they have been a part of since Israel was formed 60+ years ago. Could they defeat a standing army from the likes of the U.S., Russia, China or even the UK? Most likely not. But their enemies are Arab states and Iran which are known for having some of the worst militaries in the world.

The Israeli army has around a thousand quality main battle tanks. It's air force is large with many American made fighters and bombers.
Israel's military is tasked with keeping that tiny country safe in the midst of enemies (grievances done by Israel are for another post). Mandatory service by all young people, male and female, show how seriously the country takes its defense.

Unlike larger nations, Israel knows that a single war had the potential of wiping them out (or at least driving them out of the Middle East).
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedaddicted View Post
No its not "easy" to look good in training missions. The Pilots at Red Flag for example are some of the best in the world, and I've seen many of them get sent home early or grounded. Its not a basic training scenario by a long shot, and neither are some of the other excercises these guys go through. They have some very YOUNG pilots that fly circles around some guys that have been flying for a long time. Are they all that good, NO but no one is.

As far as thier Special Forces guys are FAR from untested. Just because you dont know about them or read about them in the paper or see them on CNN doesnt mean they are untested by any means. They are VERY well trained and battle tested. Trust me....
No one is arguing that their air force isn't any good. The fact is that for all the training they do their pilots have yet to engage an enemy fighter is hostile action. Most of the guys that have actual air combat experience last fought in the '73 war (36 years ago) and are now either top brass or serve in senior civilian capacities. Again, very easy to look good in training maneuvers but engaging a MIG in actual combat is another story.

Their SOF is probably well tested and none of us can deny or confirm this but we do know their army has NOT engaged a standing army in almost 40 years. Neither has their navy and air force. So in that sense they are untested. Unless you consider the PLO, Hezbollah, and Hamas as a formidable enemy to them.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Summerville, SC
403 posts, read 1,016,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
Well for starters the billions of US $ do go a long way in making them tough. But they are well-trained, which is apparent from every conflict they have been a part of since Israel was formed 60+ years ago. Could they defeat a standing army from the likes of the U.S., Russia, China or even the UK? Most likely not. But their enemies are Arab states and Iran which are known for having some of the worst militaries in the world.

The Israeli army has around a thousand quality main battle tanks. It's air force is large with many American made fighters and bombers.
Israel's military is tasked with keeping that tiny country safe in the midst of enemies (grievances done by Israel are for another post). Mandatory service by all young people, male and female, show how seriously the country takes its defense.

Unlike larger nations, Israel knows that a single war had the potential of wiping them out (or at least driving them out of the Middle East).
That underlines my whole point. These are armies they haven't faced in almost 40 YEARS. These armies were poorly led, lacked motivation, had inferior equipment and training.

Are they good in comparison to their neighbors? No, they're excellent.
Are they good in comparison to most modern military forces of the world? That remains to be seen.
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:23 AM
 
2,221 posts, read 3,115,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nauticadon View Post
No one is arguing that their air force isn't any good. The fact is that for all the training they do their pilots have yet to engage an enemy fighter is hostile action. Most of the guys that have actual air combat experience last fought in the '73 war (36 years ago) and are now either top brass or serve in senior civilian capacities. Again, very easy to look good in training maneuvers but engaging a MIG in actual combat is another story.

Their SOF is probably well tested and none of us can deny or confirm this but we do know their army has NOT engaged a standing army in almost 40 years. Neither has their navy and air force. So in that sense they are untested. Unless you consider the PLO, Hezbollah, and Hamas as a formidable enemy to them.
When was the last time the US military engaged a true Air to Air threat ? It doenst happen anymore. Dog fighting is a thing of the past for the most part. We dont need 3000 F-15's anymore because that threat is no longer there. Now putting bombs on a ground target, that is very real and they are VERY good at it.

Maybe you cant confirm the capabilities of thier SOF, but some others can.

I will use your logic to say that I guess our nuke's in the navy or nuke officers in the Air Fore are not that good because they have never had to use thier training....only in drills. I think not.

I would consider Hezbollah, Hamas, and the PLO no different than what the US is dealing with in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Va Beach
3,508 posts, read 11,910,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nauticadon View Post
The U.S military is the strongest of course

LOL @ people saying Israel. I guess compared to Hamas they should look pretty strong. When's the last time the Israelis faced a standing army?
This is why we get involved. We also send millions of dollars over there.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:59 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,624 posts, read 8,130,218 times
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The Israeli Air Force routinely engaged (and swatted out of the sky) Syrian Air Force MiGs over Lebanon throughout the 1980s, 90s and early 2000s.
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