Gay Army officer gets the boot

[GreenGene]

Originally Posted by Happy Cells

We have PLENTY of people in the military who do a fantastic job....and they're NOT "gay"

Hahahahahaha - that's a good one!

Just how the heck do you know that none of those people doing a fantastic job are gay? If they tell you they're gay, they're kicked out - that's the whole "Don't Tell" part of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." You don't know if they're gay or not ... and odds are, some of them are gay, and are just hiding that fact.

And this is the part I cannot understand ... why the military would rather have people who LIE (a lie of omission is still a lie) than have people who tell the truth.

It's not a matter about keeping gays out of the military - it is the official policy of the U.S. armed forces that gays are welcome ... just don't you dare admit to being gay!

[LongIslandCitizen]

Originally Posted by GreenGene

Yep ... and sometimes those male doctors aren't exactly Marcus Welby, M.D. - they are young, good-looking, single heterosexuals ... and probably have plenty of patients.

Originally Posted by GreenGene

OK - how about this. Two GYN doctors, both equally attractive, one straight male, and one gay female. Both are, by their nature, attracted to women.

Would a straight female patient feel that the straight male doctor would be inclined to "take liberties" with her? I doubt it. But would a straight female patient feel that the gay female doctor would be inclined to "take liberties" with her? Perhaps so.

But why? Both doctors are professionals, trained to treat their patients in a very professional manner.

It's simply fear, irrational fear, fear of the unknown.

It's also insulting to the lesbian doctor to think that, simply due to her being a lesbian, she has absolutely no self control and will - through word or deed - make unwanted overtures to female patients.

I wonder if some of the fear would be alleviated if the lesbian doctor wore a wedding ring?

Ok lets look at this and the argument you bring. In the first case you say the young, single, good looking doctor has PLENTY of patients. I can probably conclude that there are several reasons including the ones you give. He does a good job, is probably professional, knowlegable, and his patients are probably comfortable with him...key word being comfortable. His patients chose him.

As for the lesbian being insulted..too bad really. It is a private practice and in this country people have the right to choose whoever they want to treat them. If I go to a doctor and he has a temperment or attitude I don't like I will go to someone else whether it be male or female.

What if your doctor was away and his temp was a goth guy or chick whose body was covered in tattoos and face was pierced all over with earings. He/she may be a Harvard grad but would that make you more comfortable. Should he/she be insulted if you didn't approve?

I find it disturbing that the agenda of people who live a lifestyle not in the mainstream use words like phobias, fears, and irrational to combat people whose views are normal with being abnormal. Besides how would a person really know ones sexuality unless they advertised it in a way that made someone uncomfortable to begin with?

[Poncho_NM]

Originally Posted by GreenGene

And this is the part I cannot understand ... why the military would rather have people who LIE (a lie of omission is still a lie) than have people who tell the truth.

If you wish to twist it around to make yourself happy, then so be it.

You are not taking an oath regarding your sexuality. The oath for enlistment is:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Appointments, Guard etc are slightly different.

Nobody really cares about your religion, your color, your political affiliation and usually no one asks. There are exceptions, there are some who just do not seem to fit in the military.

So where does it say they are told to lie?



Rich

[GreenGene]

Originally Posted by LongIslandCitizen

What if your doctor was away and his temp was a goth guy or chick whose body was covered in tattoos and face was pierced all over with earings. He/she may be a Harvard grad but would that make you more comfortable. Should he/she be insulted if you didn't approve?

As long as the temp is a professional (i.e., treats his or her patients and their problems in a professional manner), I don't give a damn how they look.

Originally Posted by LongIslandCitizen

I find it disturbing that the agenda of people who live a lifestyle not in the mainstream use words like phobias, fears, and irrational to combat people whose views are normal with being abnormal.

Sorry - no "agenda" here but treating people fairly. And unless being a retired happily married straight guy is living a lifestyle not in the mainstream (don't think so), then I'll continue to call'em as I see'em, and what I see is irrational fear.

Originally Posted by LongIslandCitizen

Besides how would a person really know ones sexuality unless they advertised it in a way that made someone uncomfortable to begin with?

EXACTLY!!!

Lt. Choi (you know, the topic of this thread?) served for 10 years and no one had any problem with the way in which he conducted himself, including in combat in Iraq. But, he then publicly said that he was gay, and he was fired ... not for anything having to do with the performance of his duties, but solely based on his being gay.

Open Letter by Lt. Choi

"I have learned many lessons in the ten years since I first raised my right hand at the United States Military Academy at West Point and committed to fighting for my country. The lessons of courage, integrity, honesty and selfless service are some of the most important

"At West Point, I recited the Cadet Prayer every Sunday. It taught us to “choose the harder right over the easier wrong” and to “never be content with a half truth when the whole can be won.” The Cadet Honor Code demanded truthfulness and honesty. It imposed a zero-tolerance policy against deception, or hiding behind comfort.

"Following the Honor Code never bowed to comfortable timing or popularity. Honor and integrity are 24-hour values. That is why I refuse to lie about my identity."

[GreenGene]

Originally Posted by Poncho_NM

You are not taking an oath regarding your sexuality. The oath for enlistment is:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Appointments, Guard etc are slightly different.

The oath? Does the oath tell you anything about specific behavior? More to the point of this thread, did Lt. Choi do anything that violated his oath? Please let me know if you find anything, and provide a link - thanks.

Originally Posted by Poncho_NM

Nobody really cares about your religion, your color, your political affiliation and usually no one asks. There are exceptions, there are some who just do not seem to fit in the military.

Great point. And if a gay soldier is asked about his religion, or ethnic background, or political beliefs, and if that soldier responds truthfully ... then nothing is done. No problem - doesn't matter. But if that same gay soldier is asked about his sexuality, and if that soldier responds truthfully ... he's fired.

Originally Posted by Poncho_NM

So where does it say they are told to lie?

U.S. Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 37, Sect. 654

"(b) Policy.— A member of the armed forces shall be separated from the armed forces under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense if one or more of the following findings is made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulations:

(1) That the member has engaged in, attempted to engage in, or solicited another to engage in a homosexual act or acts .....
(2) That the member has stated that he or she is a homosexual or bisexual, or words to that effect .....
(3) That the member has married or attempted to marry a person known to be of the same biological sex."

If asked, and if the soldier replies truthfully that he's gay, he's fired. The only way in which to continue to serve is to lie. But if he's not asked, he still needs to lie (a lie of omission) by not being honest.

If you're gay, and if you want to serve in the U.S. military (for any number of the usual reasons - love of country, a feeling of obligation, and so on) you MUST live the lie, or you're out.

[HowardRoarke]

Keep "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

Most of the discharges for homosexuality have been for folks who "outed" themselves to their commanders, that way they could go home as cowards who should never have joined, in the first place. Many of those who have outed themselves in order to get out were, in fact, straight, and were using the policy as a quick and dirty way of getting out of their obligation.

These stories in the news about people being kicked out for being gay are so few and far between, that I don't see how the policy itself could be a problem, and it has no bearing on readiness or this nation's ability to fight and win wars. I see getting rid of the policy as being a problem, 'cause now all of a sudden they'll have opened up Pandora's Box. As usual in what is becoming a more PC, agenda-driven society, the rights and beliefs of individuals and even entire groups of people will be trampled on, so Obama and his fellow travelers can get a token few more votes.

All kinds of scenarios which could affect the armed forces' ability to attract good young people into the service would present themselves if the policy were changed. Imagine being a young man or woman, and being forced to live in the same room as a homosexual, despite your belief system which holds homosexuality as being deviant or whatever. Now we would have the issue of openly gay people in the military, and how that would affect everyone else around them in living quarters, on deployments, etc.

Gay people are viewed as just another token voting bloc by the Democrats. Obama is against gay marriage, but I'll bet he's gonna push for a change in policy on gays in the military as a political bone, and not because of any moral or "rights" issue.

[Happy Cells]

Don't ask Don't tell is a STUPID policy brought to us by the limp nipple Billy Klin-toon.

Go back to the policy of asking....if the candidate is homosexual... and refusing admittance to anyone who answers in the affirmative. Anyone who answers no, and gets caught later gets thrown out.

We do NOT "need" Homosexuals in the Military....not at all. We functioned fine without them in the past....we do NOT need them now....

ANYONE who thinks that we must have homos in the Services now, is simply selling packed fudge....

Have another "huff" and dream on.....We don't need em'......PERIOD....