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Old 08-20-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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This move comes as the war in Iraq appears to be winding down, the U.S. economy remains mired in recession and the Army is having few problems meeting enlistment and re-enlistment goals.

I wanted to read the article, b/c IMO, I was expecting to see this exact sentence.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Fly-over country.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
The Army was accepting recruits without a HS diploma or GED and with criminal records.
There's gang activity in the Army; most of it petty, but some not so.
That's pretty much trash talk right there....

Last I read, less than 4% of the over 100,000 recruits per year had less than a HS diploma. In the "harder" years it went up to about 8%. It's not common. They all still have to pass the test, the physical and legal checks.

Criminal records? They have to get moral waivers. That means a LTC/O5 or higher put his ass and career on the line to say the circumstances of whatever criminal activity no longer presented a problem. Most of the time, moral waivers only go to people who have valid education credentials and score above 50 on the test. GED categories open and close-- they are the exception.

Gang activity is a few random instances with a whole bunch of poser punks making it look like a bigger problem. Moderator cut: Inappropriate Language

Moderator cut: Inappropriate Language The military is a direct reflection of society. So if you think there's a problem, it's a mirror. Enjoy the view.

Last edited by Poncho_NM; 08-20-2009 at 07:02 PM..
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:49 PM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
26,527 posts, read 51,538,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
The Army was accepting recruits without a HS diploma or GED and with criminal records.
There's gang activity in the Army; most of it petty, but some not so.
1. All the services are accepting GED, they strictly limit the number of high school dropouts (which includes GED holders) who can enlist each year.
Reference: U.S. Military FAQ -- I have a GED. Am I eligible to join the military?

2. "The Army was accepting recruits with criminal records." Please give me some verifiable references so I can understand what you are really talking about? Misdemeanors or felonies, some examples please.

3. Gang activity is really old news to a degree. I remember it it the 70's. You will have some ganf activiy which you might call petty. It has never been accepted in the military, but it happens.

4. An Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID), Gang Activity Threat Assessment for FY 2006, calls the threat of gang activity in the Army LOW. Their report concludes that Military communities continue to be a more stable, secure and lawful environment than their civilian counterparts. The three page article "Gang Activity in the U.S. Military" is an interesting read: Gang Activity in the U.S. Military


Rich
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Old 08-21-2009, 09:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caution View Post
That's pretty much trash talk right there....

Last I read, less than 4% of the over 100,000 recruits per year had less than a HS diploma. In the "harder" years it went up to about 8%. It's not common. They all still have to pass the test, the physical and legal checks.

Criminal records? They have to get moral waivers. That means a LTC/O5 or higher put his ass and career on the line to say the circumstances of whatever criminal activity no longer pres
I believe that the Army lowered ASVAB score requirements in 07 due to difficulty in meeting needs. I will try to find a valid source to either back that up or refute it. I also remember talk about non-GED holding recruits. Again, I need to find sources.

As for criminal records...I had a Soldier who came in with a bad one. Got p'od at his wife, went to WalMart, bought a gun, took it home, shot her & himself in front of their 2yr old son.

Personally, that sort of thing happens anywhere.

I was MUCH more concerned about mental health than gang activity and criminal activity. It is a little concerning when a soldier comes back from a mental eval and his paperwork says that he/she cannot carry or fire a weapon....half the time you didn't know if it was the Soldier putting on an act to avoid a FTX, etc or if the Soldier truly had serious mental problems. This sort of thing starts to take away from preparing your Soldiers for deployment.

What I found & could not find date of posting (there are hundreds of links on ASVAB scores)..."The Army requires a minimum AFQT Score of 31 to qualify for enlistment. However, in recent months, the Army has been approving more and more waivers for those with scores as low as 26 (Category IVA). To qualify for certain enlistment incentives, such as enlistment bonuses, an Army recruit must score a minimum of 50. "
http://www.zillahschools.org/military/

Education - The Army allows more recruits to enlist with a GED than any other branch. In Fiscal Year 2008, only 83 percent of new Army recruits had a high school diploma (or at least 15 college credits), comparted with the Department of Defense (DOD) average of 92 percent. The Army even has a special program, called Army Prep School, that allows individuals to enlist who have no high school diploma or GED. http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjo...vabminimum.htm

I was a commissioned QM officer...just as they need to weed out some NCOs, the same needs to be done with some officers...but by the time they pin on MAJ, it's all politics...and that is also an interesting fact...the time to pin on MAJ has been reduced....I just don't get it...

Last edited by 121804; 08-21-2009 at 10:20 AM..
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:19 AM
 
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I don't know the specific requirements, but i do know that individuals that the Marines and USAF disqualify for criminal records,education & ASVAB scores can alot of time still get into the Army & Navy, and individuals that the Navy disqualify can alot of times still get into the Army.

The minimum ASVAB score for the Marines is 31 for males, 50 for females. I think it's 36 in the USAF, and down in the 20s for the Army.

The Army does have a standard, heck, the DOD has a standard whihc all of the services enlist above, it's just that the Army's standard is not as high as the other services. Which can be a good thing, as I've seen people I'd love to enlist in the Marine Corps, who would make great marines and obvious have learned from past mistakes, but are denied enlistment due to mistakes in their youth.
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
1. All the services are accepting GED, they strictly limit the number of high school dropouts (which includes GED holders) who can enlist each year.
Reference: U.S. Military FAQ -- I have a GED. Am I eligible to join the military?

2. "The Army was accepting recruits with criminal records." Please give me some verifiable references so I can understand what you are really talking about? Misdemeanors or felonies, some examples please.

3. Gang activity is really old news to a degree. I remember it it the 70's. You will have some ganf activiy which you might call petty. It has never been accepted in the military, but it happens.

4. An Army Criminal Investigation Command (CID), Gang Activity Threat Assessment for FY 2006, calls the threat of gang activity in the Army LOW. Their report concludes that Military communities continue to be a more stable, secure and lawful environment than their civilian counterparts. The three page article "Gang Activity in the U.S. Military" is an interesting read: Gang Activity in the U.S. Military


Rich
"The Army admitted about one-fourth more recruits last year with a record of legal problems ranging from felony convictions and serious misdemeanors to drug crimes and traffic offenses, as pressure to increase the size of U.S. ground forces led the military to grant more waivers for criminal conduct, according to new data released yesterday
...
In particular, the Army accepted more than double the number of applicants with convictions for felony crimes such as burglary, grand larceny and aggravated assault, rising from 249 to 511, while the corresponding number for the Marines increased by two-thirds, from 208 to 350."


NewsMine.org - Army accepting more recruits with felonies
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Old 08-21-2009, 11:42 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
26,527 posts, read 51,538,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24 View Post
Thank you, interesting read. I found some additional interesting real numbers: "Last year, the active-duty Army and Marine Corps brought in about 80,000 and 35,000 active-duty recruits, respectively; the number of 2007 recruits with felony conviction waivers amounted to less than 1 percent of the total soldiers and Marines recruited that year."

I wonder if you walked down main street of any major town, would the ratio of people with felony convictions be great or less than the numbers above? I also wonder who is the greater threat to society, the civilian walking down the street or a military person? Perhaps that's not a fair question, I was thinking out loud.



Rich
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,826 posts, read 20,604,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
Thank you, interesting read. I found some additional interesting real numbers: "Last year, the active-duty Army and Marine Corps brought in about 80,000 and 35,000 active-duty recruits, respectively; the number of 2007 recruits with felony conviction waivers amounted to less than 1 percent of the total soldiers and Marines recruited that year."

I wonder if you walked down main street of any major town, would the ratio of people with felony convictions be great or less than the numbers above? I also wonder who is the greater threat to society, the civilian walking down the street or a military person? Perhaps that's not a fair question, I was thinking out loud.



Rich

It makes me wonder, if, the percentage is so small, why did they (need to) relax the rules in the first place?
Personally I feel that serving in the military is exactly what a lot of these young people need to get their lives on track, so, I am not philosophically opposed as long as there are no other mitigating factors.
As someone else mentioned, and I concur, the mental health of these young people is a much bigger concern and much more tragic when overlooked:

A recent case in point:

Autistic Marine Court Martialed and Given Bad Conduct Discharge - ABC News
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Old 08-21-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24 View Post
It makes me wonder, if, the percentage is so small, why did they (need to) relax the rules in the first place?
Because they were not meeting quota. CMon, like the Pentagon isn't a business?? What is the recruiter bombarded to do? Meet quota. A few years ago, economy was fine. Businesses weren't freaking out and laying off people based on fear and were racking up credit bills b/c AMEX was banking off the interest...now, a whole different economy and GI Joe can't find a job even washing dishes.... For those in the military, they know some of the shady stuff that goes on with recruiting. Let's not pretend it doesn't happen. It's not an everyday occurance, but it happens...and unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier, it happens much, much more with enlistees who have mental health issues rather than criminal.

In reality, the military isn't the hardest job out there when you take away deployment. And when you want to buy $100 jeans and lease a Mustang, the guaranteed paycheck from DFAS is a lot more intriguing and upfront than sitting in 125 degree heat in the middle of the desert or serving fries with the Big Mac.

They relaxed the rules b/c they needed boots on the ground in Iraq. Who didn't relax the rules? The Air Force and Navy. Why? B/c Iraq isn't an air war, it's a ground war. Just look at the number of Soldiers who lost their life in Iraq, check out their MOS and their branch......

It was a political game played by the Pentagon and good ole Donald Rumsfeld and gang.

Now, Iraq has stopped making headline news and the forces are slowly handing over responsibility to the Iraqi's. The economy is in shambles and GI Joe with the GED cannot find a job, so sticking around with 4ID is a lot better than his other choices, if he even has any....

Most of my friends are hitting 8+ years & hold bachelors or even Masters. They try for a spot at West Point. If they doesn't work, they are sticking it out b/c of the economy. There isn't much for them to do and while they hold a solid resume, so do all the others who are competing for the same job.

I wonder when the rules will be relaxed again as if any of us don't think Afghanistan cannot get messy, we are living in a bubble....
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Old 08-21-2009, 03:42 PM
 
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Four U.S. troops charged with soldier cruelty - Military- msnbc.com

Gang activity and the common perception of a thug walking down the civilian streets...nope, generally not the problem.

Unfortunately, this is and it's happened far far too many times.
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