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Old 02-27-2010, 09:16 AM
 
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To those posters supporting men and women serving together in tight quarters, why not get them accustomed to that by eliminmating men and women seperate boot camp/basic training?
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Old 02-27-2010, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post
WOW...what a shotgun blast... Yes, men and women ARE sexual animals. But mature men & women can handle those tensions. Military members engaging in sexual relations certainly aren't limited to submarines. It's STILL a matter of doing the job and behaving like an adult. If you can't deal with working closely with members of the opposite sex maybe you should be in some other line of work.

Again, I feel the ONLY consideration is: Can the member do the job? The UCMJ makes sure we all behave and and there seems to be only a small number of personnel that can't. If the rest of the world's military forces don't have a problem with men & women serving together, why do we. If we want equal promotion opportunities for BOTH men & women, we must allow them to serve everywhere men do.
I agree completely.



Picture a 4 story building, like a parking garage, 4 stories tall inside and 2 football fields long [well okay fine 6 foot short of two football fields long].

Now inside of that parking garage you put 135 people.

The crew is divided into three watch-sections. At any one time one section is one watch, and the other two sections are 'off'.

One section approx 45 people are 'on-watch' which means they are standing at their watch-stations. In every nook and cranny of that massive parking garage are scattered a bunch of watch-stations. Valves, switches, breakers, gauges and computer monitors. At each watch-station is one or two people operating their systems.

Most of these watch stations are in rooms separated from each other. Multiple doors and passageways connect them and yet separate them, multiple MC 'circuits' or Comms systems exist so every watch-stander can communicate with every other watch-stander everywhere else onboard.

These are not people rubbing shoulders squeezed into tight conditions. They are far enough apart from each other that few watch-stations can speak directly to one another, they are simply too far apart physically. Remember the two football field parking garage that has four stories inside? That is what we are discussing.

Most of the time the remaining 90 people are in their bunkrooms, and the passageways will be completely empty.

Before shift-change 45 people get up in their bunkrooms, some will rotate through showers, they all go to the messdecks which has seating for exactly 45 people. That is the only time that all 45 people in a section will even see each other is while eating. Then they all scatter in different directions as they go to their watch-stations. It may a few minutes and once again the passageways will be empty again.

Then the off-going shift will all migrate to the messdecks to eat. Then maybe watch a movie. Some will have equipment maintenance that must be done, so they will skip the movie and go do some maintenance, or college courses in the library. Or some may go jogging on the track in upper-level missile. Before going back to their bunks.

Most of the time 2/3s of the crew is in their bunkrooms and the passageways are empty.

I have been on deployment and half way through a patrol when I was first meeting a new crewmember.

If you were in a different watch section from me and stand watch in a different station; then there is very little chance of us meeting each other.

Granted as years go by, everyone gets shifted around from one section to another section so eventually everyone gets to at least sit and have a meal with everyone else.

I fail to see submarine life as 'tight' and 'confining'.

I also do not see subs as having any greater threat of sexual misconduct, then any other career field.
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Old 02-27-2010, 09:50 AM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
24,132 posts, read 38,871,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marmac View Post
To those posters supporting men and women serving together in tight quarters, why not get them accustomed to that by eliminmating men and women seperate boot camp/basic training?
Some services, Air Force, Army and Navy did at one time. Started with the Carter administration and bounced on and off for some time. I don't know what the current status is.


Rich
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:23 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,545,224 times
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Comparing the US military to "other" forces is nonsense. Other military forces don't have our track record of success in war or battle and they more often than not have different goals and lower standards. More often than not WE protect THEM so using the "quality" of their forces as some sort of model to be followed is not logical.
UCMJ is not perfect at enforcing behavior. Sure adults are supposed to act like adults....In a dream-land. In reality they do not. Many of the members of the service are barely out of their teens, and a LONG way off from adulthood. Time and again we see people who are supposed to behave but don't. Are we REALLY going to base the future of our National Security on the "hope" that people behave? ...Will we really continue to lean on the UCMJ as a knee jerk reaction to bad behavior after the fact? Why burden the system with all the ingredients of disaster and simply say...."the UCMJ will fix it"...don't set up our forces for failure....which is precisely what these PC policies are all about whether or not that was the intention.
Comparing the civilian world to the military world is absurd as well. Private sector firms must make a profit. If they burden themselves with endless "policies" that hurt their bottom line they go under. If they find a cheaper and less restrictive operating environment offshore that is where they go. The military can't be (should not be) outsourced. The military is not driven by the financial profit motive. Our mission is fighting battles, winning wars, ensuring the safety and security of the United States both with combat and humanitarian action, any other use of the military is not within the scope of our mission and honestly constitutes a miss-use of the military. We've been down this road before...that of using our forces as guinea pigs, and it was wrong, terribly wrong to have done so. The military in our free society is at the beckon call of the civilian government, however that does not justify the use of the military for all the patently non-mission essential uses of the military that politicians obviously have such a difficult time restraining themselves from engaging in.

The real bottom line....for us....
We will continue to suffer all this nonsense....and sooner or later it will cost us dearly. We'll continue to "deal with it"...and that is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevail postmortem these policies...and meet this unwelcome and utterly avoidable self-induced disaster with as much dignity as we can muster, but make no mistake about it no one is going to like it...not one bit and that attitude will be very thinly veiled in all of those that have to put up with this crap. Pure exhaustive exasperation. Not even those who are purportedly to benefit from all this will be happy because it will be painfully obvious to everyone what the "score" is and that will permeate the attitude of dang near everyone. Life on the boat will STILL be miserable and this will really make it tense...Thanks a whole bunch all you "politicians" and "sea-lawyers" out there......Very few if any of us are going to cheer when these patently idiotic policies get pushed on us. Again it will ALWAYS be the case of "dealing with it". It will NOT be some sort of sun-burst epiphany joyous moment when we can all breathe easy and rejoice that life on a warship has gotten easier....that someone inside the beltway made a move that ACTUALLY HELPED us reduced our stress our workload our tension. Nope......it will really end up costing us dearly.....That cost may be purloined off to some future generation of war-fighters who may not even be aware that the seeds of their loss were sown long ago....

I'll guess I'll pursue a policy of making the Chiefs deal with it all.....sounds good....I'm sure they've got the time....

Last edited by Happy Cells; 02-27-2010 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:16 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,398 posts, read 6,958,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Each member of the crew is needed and they are each highly trained professionals.

I do not see making such a big deal of their gender.
Pardon me, but you do not see making such a big deal of their gender because you have no idea what it is like to BE their gender.
You state that each member of the crew is needed. Daily. What happens when you have the females having cramps all within days of each other or at the same time? (If you have enough females in close quarters for long periods of time, their cycles will sometimes coincide..it is this way on my BF's carrier, and he says its a pain in the arse because they're all sick/cranky)
Have you ever tried working a high pressure job with very bad cramps? Bloating? Fatigue? All of these at once? And since most females I know of wish to be cleaner/more sanitary, more trips to the head would be needed to "clean up". This in and of itself would be detrimental to the job that those female sailors had to do.

Top that off to if a female sailor got pregnant...Do you REALLY want a mood-swing prone, morning sick Sailor on your boat?

Just adding a woman's perspective here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
The OP is about boats.

Not targets.
Target.
Purpose is to present a big image to direct incoming missiles and torpedoes to itself and away from the combatants.
Another target.
The OP is about boats.
^^^
Alright, Children, do I have to separate you two? You were both in the same branch...one chose to stay above the ocean and the other chose to smell horrid when he came back up from below. Im picking, Beekeeper, but you must admit Bubbleheads smell terrible when they resurface after a while...it smells like a fart.
None of this Bubblehead/Carrier arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
If our ship gets hit, I'll float away on the life raft. Sub gets hit, maybe some pieces will float away. They offered the chance for me to go on a submarine. Turned them down. Why would I go on a boat you plan on sinking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
So what you are all saying is that military personel...the great fighting forces of these United States...these highly-trained, highly-touted paragons of discipline and integrity...can't work together because they can't keep it in their pants?

That is patently pathetic.
First, have you ever spoken with any Sailor working aboard any vessel? Have you been told of the sometimes 19 hour days worked, the evironment they're working in? Heard the stories of stress coming not only from their jobs, but from families that they can do little for because they are somewhere else?
Anything? Do you know anything of which you speak?
Their jobs = stress. Stress/exhaustion= you look for a way to relieve it...in any way.Its not pathetic. Its human. Moderator cut: Please, no name calling, slurs, attacks, etc

Last edited by Poncho_NM; 02-27-2010 at 01:57 PM..
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddiamond102 View Post
Pardon me, but you do not see making such a big deal of their gender because you have no idea what it is like to BE their gender.
Clearly I have no experience as a female.

You are correct.



Quote:
... You state that each member of the crew is needed. Daily. What happens when you have the females having cramps all within days of each other or at the same time? (If you have enough females in close quarters for long periods of time, their cycles will sometimes coincide..it is this way on my BF's carrier, and he says its a pain in the arse because they're all sick/cranky) Have you ever tried working a high pressure job with very bad cramps? Bloating? Fatigue? All of these at once? And since most females I know of wish to be cleaner/more sanitary, more trips to the head would be needed to "clean up". This in and of itself would be detrimental to the job that those female sailors had to do.

Top that off to if a female sailor got pregnant...Do you REALLY want a mood-swing prone, morning sick Sailor on your boat?

Just adding a woman's perspective here.
I thought that the "Everything will fall to pieces each time she has PMS" argument was rather sexist and demeaning?

It is my understanding that some females have debilitating PMS, while others do not.

In either case, as you pointed out, I am not an expert on such a topic.



Quote:
... Alright, Children, do I have to separate you two? You were both in the same branch ... one chose to stay above the ocean and the other chose to smell horrid when he came back up from below. Im picking, Beekeeper, but you must admit Bubbleheads smell terrible when they resurface after a while ... it smells like a fart.
None of this Bubblehead / Carrier arguing.
Point of order!

Bubbleheads do not smell like 'farts'.

It is our clothing that absorbs the smell, and it is a mixture of Amine and Methane.

The clothing that I took to sea was never allowed into our home. It lived in the garage between patrols.

So you see it is not the bubbleheads that stink, it is their clothing, and it can not be washed out of the fabric.



Quote:
... First, have you ever spoken with any Sailor working aboard any vessel? Have you been told of the sometimes 19 hour days worked, the evironment they're working in? Heard the stories of stress coming not only from their jobs, but from families that they can do little for because they are somewhere else?

... stress ... exhaustion ...
Relax, take deep breaths, in and out, in and out.

Think of a dense forest filled with trees and shrubs and mushrooms, maybe a deer walking by, some bees buzzing along. ...

Deep breathes, let let it all out. The world is still here, it will be okay. Dont get your panties in a knot, just breath, in and out.

If you lived near me I would offer to buy you a beer at our VFW.

Just relax. You get all worked up and your going to blow an artery. Take it easy.

Have a beer.
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:20 PM
 
Location: So. of Rosarito, Baja, Mexico
6,571 posts, read 17,949,017 times
Reputation: 5919
I can just imagine the problem of being in a foxhole with a female soldier when NATURE calls.

Question is "do I cover my eyes"? or do I just sit and stare.

This is NOT being on a ship or in a sub of course but think of the possibilities in re to the head and who is allowed in that head considering the posts on the CO/XO facilities being considered private heads.

Crew heads also being available and where in location to the persons work place.

Getting the Jeebees thinking about it.

Steve
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,398 posts, read 6,958,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Clearly I have no experience as a female.

You are correct.

I thought that the "Everything will fall to pieces each time she has PMS" argument was rather sexist and demeaning?

It is my understanding that some females have debilitating PMS, while others do not.

In either case, as you pointed out, I am not an expert on such a topic.
I never said they'd "fall apart"..But I do believe it would further complicate things.
Even if it isnt debilitating, it still can interfere with doing a job (Even regular PMS is very distracting and has alot of side-effects, and even if the "flow" is normal she's still probablygoing to want to take more breaks due to fatigue/or to clean up)...especially one as involved as many of the jobs are on a submarine.

My remarks werent meant to be sexist and demeaning...especially not to those who are my own gender. Rather, they were more to give a different perspective/scenario. We are cranky, irritable biotches at that time of month for a reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Point of order!

Bubbleheads do not smell like 'farts'.

It is our clothing that absorbs the smell, and it is a mixture of Amine and Methane.

The clothing that I took to sea was never allowed into our home. It lived in the garage between patrols.

So you see it is not the bubbleheads that stink, it is their clothing, and it can not be washed out of the fabric.
When ya'll come out of that boat for the first time wearing those clothes, those clothes are part of your person. Ya'll stink! Even your hair smells like a fart when you come off.
I was living on base with my S/O one summer in Charleston, and it just so happened a CO lived across the street (Housing messed up or something, he should have been in officer housing)...He was working in the nearby submarine and had apparently been in it a while doing something or another. Anyway, I got to see his wife spray him down with a hose before she'd let him in the house. Good thing too, I went to get my mail and could smell him.So S/O and I are watching this scene from the front porch.

Me..Id gotten to know his wife a little, so I was cheering her on from across the street. Next thing I know, CO sputters

Nix! (Last name changed for privacy)
SO replies "Yes sir?"
CO: "Any word of this and you'll be stripping hallways"
SO (Still laughing) Yes sir.
Me (To his wife) Spray him again! He's being a bully!
His wife obliges, SO disappears into the house. Next day when he got home from work I asked him if that CO still smelled bad.

He said yes. He also said that CO thinks his woman has a big mouth,and said to tell me his wife wanted to get together for dinner.



Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Relax, take deep breaths, in and out, in and out.

Think of a dense forest filled with trees and shrubs and mushrooms, maybe a deer walking by, some bees buzzing along. ...

Deep breathes, let let it all out. The world is still here, it will be okay. Dont get your panties in a knot, just breath, in and out.

If you lived near me I would offer to buy you a beer at our VFW.

Just relax. You get all worked up and your going to blow an artery. Take it easy.

Have a beer.
LOL how about a cocktail instead? Im not much of a beer girl.
It makes me mad when people who have never been associated with our Sailors voice opinions on what "should be" when they have no idea of what conditions are being worked in.Maybe its a by-product of having auburn/red hair?
I know what my Sailor goes through, how hard he works, and what he must give up in order to do his job correctly.
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bagu View Post
I can just imagine the problem of being in a foxhole with a female soldier when NATURE calls.

Question is "do I cover my eyes"? or do I just sit and stare.

This is NOT being on a ship or in a sub of course but think of the possibilities in re to the head and who is allowed in that head considering the posts on the CO/XO facilities being considered private heads.

Crew heads also being available and where in location to the persons work place.

Getting the Jeebees thinking about it.

Steve
I have no clue what you trying to say.

The CO and XO each have a stateroom, their stateroom doors are next to each other. Inside their staterooms is a second door which opens to a small head with a shower. That head only has two doors, one to the CO's stateroom and one to the XO's stateroom.

They share a head, and it is 'private' in the fact that you can only get to it via one of their staterooms.

The crew have a head in the Torpedo compartment, and two heads in the berthing compartment.

The officers share a head and the chiefs share a head.

Since the crew has two large heads, I see no problem in dedicating one of them 'male' and one 'female'; if the crew became mixed anyway.

I do not follow why you would get jeebees from having male and female heads. It is commonly seen in restaurants. Do restaurants frighten you?
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
29,722 posts, read 47,483,706 times
Reputation: 17569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddiamond102 View Post
I never said they'd "fall apart" .. But I do believe it would further complicate things. Even if it isnt debilitating, it still can interfere with doing a job (Even regular PMS is very distracting and has alot of side-effects, and even if the "flow" is normal she's still probably going to want to take more breaks due to fatigue / or to clean up) ... especially one as involved as many of the jobs are on a submarine.

My remarks werent meant to be sexist and demeaning ... especially not to those who are my own gender. Rather, they were more to give a different perspective / scenario. We are cranky, irritable biotches at that time of month for a reason.
I could not have said it any better myself.

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