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Old 08-15-2012, 01:25 PM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,682,426 times
Reputation: 454

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
No one was shouting you down, but it took about 5 posts to figure out what you were getting at. Now, you have a long response but you are still repeating the mistakes of your other responses. Two examples -
"So, are you saying it's draconian to prevent those people from buying guns & ammunition?"
"back to the 'you can't do anything' response"

So you in turn are resorting to the close-minded approach that if one thing is a negative, everything else is a negative. Even the other poster noticed that of you. For the record, of course, none of the above conclusions from you are correct, on the other hand I documented an entire paragraph of what can be done. The problem really is that you think the ONLY solution (as far as I can gather) is gun control. My point is that you are just addressing the symptoms, not the cause. By doing that you will not fix the cause, and gun violence will continue.

There are solutions that are non-political - you addressed some of it yourself, you did not even realize it. There are already gun laws and controls on the books - enforce current laws and make use of existing controls. You are correct that health care professionals are required to take action to those that they deem a danger to themselves or others. So enforce it. There are also laws on the books for felons that possess firearms. Enforce that as well. Publicize the existing NICS database to improve the information quality. Another thing - gun violence is drawing attention as a public health deseise. Health care professionals, experts in the field, are offerning solutions that I agree with to a certain degree - address the shooter, not the tool. These are not pro-gun entusiasts, these are professionals that have discussed an issue in a methological scientific problem solving approach, and arrived at a solution. They found that gun violence is associated with a limited portion of society - the poor, those with chemical dependencies, those with mental issues. Improve mental health, enforce existing laws, recognize patters that result in gun violence, recognize host factors, recognize environmental factors. I can offer several links if you are really interested.

Now in regards to your comments about gun owners do not want additional gun laws. That might be true, actually, as I stated, that holds for the majority of the population. But to say that gun owners don't care about guns in the hands of mentally disabled or felons is mistaken. I am not a member of NRA, but the vice president of the NRA is on record with this quote: "Wayne LaPierre, the NRA's executive vice president, told NEWSWEEK: “Our position on this is crystal clear: If you are adjudicated by a court to be mentally defective, suicidal, a danger to yourself or to others, you should be prohibited from buying a firearm,”
I find your arguments disingenous, you can speak for all gun owners as well as anyone, including myself. It's a little naive to think that gun owners care about keeping guns from people who shouldn't have them, yet are against anything that tries to do exactly that. I can't know if you're doing it on purpose or really can't see the forest for the trees.

As for the bit about motivators for gun violence, that's all well & good, but what is done about it? Ahh, then we're back at your hyperbole about reopening institutions... not constructive at all.

Judging by a quick perusal of your posts, leads me to believe you're another partisan in the gun debate. Facts are meaningless to you, this debate has become about what you believe, not reality.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:30 PM
 
Location: La Jolla, CA
7,284 posts, read 16,606,000 times
Reputation: 11675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
Well, I guess you want a semantic debate.
That implies that the scope of the term is debatable. As I said before, if your dislike of the definition precludes you from objectively interpreting or using the term, then take it up with the people who define it. As it stands, you misused it, and you were corrected. Move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
Maybe you're not familiar with the term 'hollow victory'.
Clearly you're not familiar with the term 'hypocrisy'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
As for the rest, I have not mentioned any solution so how can anyone disagree with me, unless they don't want a solution? Oh, wait... you're fine with the status quo, I guess that's how.
Nobody is disagreeing with the solution you never proposed. Your perception of this supposed "disagreement" with your solution that you admit was never proposed, is a product of your own delusions. You are making things up (as above), attributing those things to other people, then attacking those people, using the things you made up, as "evidence".
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:24 PM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,682,426 times
Reputation: 454
[quote=43north87west;25650135] That implies that the scope of the term is debatable. As I said before, if your dislike of the definition precludes you from objectively interpreting or using the term, then take it up with the people who define it. As it stands, you misused it, and you were corrected. Move on. /quote]

I already did, try to keep up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west View Post
Clearly you're not familiar with the term 'hypocrisy'.
So instead of a hollow victory you're admitting to be a hypocrite, lots of sense there. Lots. of. sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west View Post
Nobody is disagreeing with the solution you never proposed. Your perception of this supposed "disagreement" with your solution that you admit was never proposed, is a product of your own delusions. You are making things up (as above), attributing those things to other people, then attacking those people, using the things you made up, as "evidence".
I see, so why do you keep coming back? To correct my usage of mass murder so as not to include trios of death? Wow, that's a recipe for a meaningful life.
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:58 PM
 
Location: La Jolla, CA
7,284 posts, read 16,606,000 times
Reputation: 11675
You have a reading comprehension problem. The hypocrisy is yours, as are the delusions. One sentence you said you moved on. Two sentences later, you brought the same thing up again.

Obviously you have no ability to introduce a point and actually discuss it. You've not made one post in this thread in response to anyone, without either making up a bunch of crap about things they didn't say, hurling a bunch of insults based on things that you confabulated, or falling back on logical fallacies to prop up whatever it is that you have made up in the first place.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:12 PM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,682,426 times
Reputation: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west View Post
You have a reading comprehension problem. The hypocrisy is yours, as are the delusions. One sentence you said you moved on. Two sentences later, you brought the same thing up again.

Obviously you have no ability to introduce a point and actually discuss it. You've not made one post in this thread in response to anyone, without either making up a bunch of crap about things they didn't say, hurling a bunch of insults based on things that you confabulated, or falling back on logical fallacies to prop up whatever it is that you have made up in the first place.
If I have no ability to introduce a point, why are you responding. What's your deal? I see the insults spewing from your posts, to what end?

This is long past being about a shooting in Oak Creek & keeping weapons from murderers, I guess you've won.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Midwestern Dystopia
2,417 posts, read 3,549,508 times
Reputation: 3091
it was a full 3 days after the shooting when the police and FBI admitted the gunman killed himself. Why?

they had to have known sooner? they had dashboard video of the incident. They had to have seen the bullet hole in his head. why didn't they say anything. This JS report reads like a police PR report, esp. the bolded:

Sikh temple gunman shot himself in head after being shot by officer - JSOnline

after he was put down by a precise rifle shot fired by a police officer from 75 feet away, gunman Wade Michael Page ended the carnage as he began it, with a single bullet, pointing his 9mm handgun at his head, squeezing the trigger and killing himself.

Page's suicide wasn't disclosed until the news conference. Previously, it was believed he was killed by a police officer.
FBI Special Agent in Charge Teresa Carlson said evidence, including videotape from a police squad car, showed Page took his own life after the rifle shot took him down.
The officer shot Page in the stomach, "thereby neutralizing the threat," Carlson said.
"I've seen the video, it was an amazing shot. And thank goodness," she said.
The officer who shot Page has been identified by the police union as Sam Lenda, a veteran of the Oak Creek police force. The officer's shot to Wade's stomach potentially could have killed him if he hadn't shot himself in the head, authorities said


and why did it take so long to notify family members and 2 hours for the medical examiner to arrive on scene after being called (after 6 pm, a full EIGHT HOURS after the shootings)

In the hours after the shooting, family members waited, many of them believing their loved ones were still alive. In fact, their loved ones were part of the crime scene, untouched and unidentified for about nine hours.

While the medical examiner's office was in contact with authorities at the scene throughout the day, investigators weren't dispatched to process the scene until 4:35 p.m., more than six hours after the shooting occurred. They arrived at 6:53 p.m.
Family members were notified between 9:30 p.m. and 10 p.m.



I simply don't understand , they had video evidence that he shot himself, why cover it up. He acted alone, what strategy is there to not tell that side of the story???
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:09 AM
 
14,984 posts, read 23,775,922 times
Reputation: 26473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
This is long past being about a shooting in Oak Creek & keeping weapons from murderers, I guess you've won.
We gave you every oppurtunity to have a discussion. This is the problem with your debate style: If we say "You can't do this because..." or "We don't agree with this because", but we (I specifically) say "but we can do this". You close your mind and only read the first part. Not only that, but somehow your interpretive filters translate that in some strange way to suggest that we are endorsing murder or something.
The other poster got it right - introduce a point and discuss it. Don't argue based on fallacies. I mean, you haven't even suggested yourself any solutions yet, or even the point of what you want to say, besides simply the concept of gun control. At this point, after 2 false starts and giving you a fair chance, we are worn out.
You're responses are just not a constructive style of discussion.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:59 AM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,682,426 times
Reputation: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
We gave you every oppurtunity to have a discussion. This is the problem with your debate style: If we say "You can't do this because..." or "We don't agree with this because", but we (I specifically) say "but we can do this". You close your mind and only read the first part. Not only that, but somehow your interpretive filters translate that in some strange way to suggest that we are endorsing murder or something.
The other poster got it right - introduce a point and discuss it. Don't argue based on fallacies. I mean, you haven't even suggested yourself any solutions yet, or even the point of what you want to say, besides simply the concept of gun control. At this point, after 2 false starts and giving you a fair chance, we are worn out.
You're responses are just not a constructive style of discussion.
I disagree with everything you've written. I can't tell if you are lying or really believe what you write, either way it's pointless. You have succeeded in stopping any discussion on how to prevent another shooting. You talk out of both sides of your mouth about solutions, how they exist but we can't actually implement anything.

Inaction is enabling, it's like a lie of omission. There's nothing tricky, confusing or deceitful about that. So you can keep your fair chances & your false starts too, coming from someone else they might have value but an idealogue's 'fair' chance is worthless, but you knew that already... that's why it was freely given.
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:25 PM
 
14,984 posts, read 23,775,922 times
Reputation: 26473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse276 View Post
I disagree with everything you've written.
I'm shocked and perplexed!
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Old 08-16-2012, 04:31 PM
 
Location: East Side Milwaukee
711 posts, read 1,682,426 times
Reputation: 454
DHS’s right-wing terror blind spot - Salon.com

I haven't gotten through the entire article yet, is this the result of politicizing law enforcement or just avoiding the topic entirely?
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