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First, you might want to fight with the author over his characterizations and or choice of words. Pick at him. Frankly, I was focused on the economics of what is proposed, not on war, or antiwar, whatever.
Doubt seriously a politician who is as seasoned as Walker would bother picking a fight with a bunch of students. One doesn't win three tough elections in four years by being petty. Or picking the wrong fight.
'....the other crap.', is not a very qualitative argument. Hard to know. Is this the other crap of which you speak? His plan would also continue a tuition freeze for two years and grant more freedom from state oversight to the system, which university officials have sought.
In life, increases happen, and cuts happen. Everyone loves the increases. No one likes to have to do without, to suffer cuts. Both are inevitable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
Its wrong to be against war? Should they be PRO war?
And so the students are politically active, so he wants to punish them?
That would make him a horrible person. Our citizens SHOULD be politically active.
So do that without the cuts and the other crap. Simple.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,747 posts, read 33,994,366 times
Reputation: 40187
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthlyfather
'....the other crap.', is not a very qualitative argument. Hard to know. Is this the other crap of which you speak? His plan would also continue a tuition freeze for two years and grant more freedom from state oversight to the system, which university officials have sought.
Good God, the other parts of his proposal, which have already been discussed. That's the "other crap".
I care because I'm moving to Madison in a week. My boyfriend and I looked into Madison and the Twin Cities and chose Madison knowing full well that the political situation in Wisconsin is much worse than that of Minnesota right now. We made the choice we did regardless because we like Madison. We like Wisconsin. My boyfriend has roots in northeastern WI. We like the culture and history of the state. I am choosing to move out of the Southeast, where I grew up, because I finally realized I would always be at odds with Southern culture as long as I am here. Wisconsin, historically, has a culture that reflects my values, which include education and workers' rights.
It is my hope that Walker will keep digging himself under and there will be a backlash. Some of the ideology spouted by Walker supporters strikes me as similar to what I'd hear in defense of such a candidate in the Southeast, where workers are supposed to "just be grateful they have a job," to accept poor wages and working conditions, and to accept the presence of an elite that gets most of the benefit of the workers' labor.
I don't think this ideology reflects traditional Wisconsin values. I'm not just talking about liberal Madison, but the whole state. Chet tells me proudly about how where he's from (NE WI / UP), it's just as rural and working class as the places I grew up, but people are more politically informed, support unions and labor protection, and aren't obsessed about each other's religious beliefs. We've both seen that changing, which I can't help but attribute to the spread of national conservative rhetoric that's dumbing everyone down to think like Southerners think... And as my boyfriend likes to point out, Southerners have been on the wrong side of history, again and again.
The sad thing is, at the end of the day, I believe we all want the same thing--to be able to work and earn a living with dignity. We all want workers to be compensated for their labor instead of exploited. Yet passions and political alignments drive people into emotional arguments instead of dispassionate examination of what actually works or not. Nationwide, the economic success or failure of different states and localities serve as empirical evidence for the effects of certain policies. Again and again, it's proven that austerity practices such as cutting funds for education do not generate wealth. Certain investments generate more wealth than they require to fund. Research has shown this is the case for the UW system, and yet people line up behind Walker saying that the cuts he's making will improve the economy. Look at other states too--it's clear that refusing to raise, or even maintain, taxes on the wealthiest members of society is what leads to deficits. States and cities that have raised taxes on high earners while maintaining funding for public services are on average doing well, while those that give tax breaks to the wealthy and cut public services are on average doing poorly.
Now--people hate the *idea* of taxing wealth or income, seeing it as tantamount to stealing. But, again, it's not that simple. There's no magic market god who says that people will get paid exactly what they're worth, as if it were tabulated on some calculator in the sky. People get paid what we decide they're worth, due to the rules and laws we put in place. We've decided as a society that it is OK for CEOs to earn 300x what their employees do. We've decided that Wall Street hooligans who do nothing for society, who play games with imaginary money, deserve lavish lifestyles, while the police, teachers, and public service workers we need for a safe, functional society can barely scrape by. I don't have a problem with some people earning more than others, I have a problem with more and more money being concentrated at the very top of society. And I don't believe, from personal experience, that these wealthy folks work harder than the rest of us--the fact is, a lot of them coast along due to connections or inheritance. We say we value work, but we lie--we don't pay the hardest workers the most. Especially not when we strip unions of their power to represent workers.
I am so tired of the level of political discourse in our country. Time and time again you hear or read streams of ad hominem attacks without substance or evidence to back up arguments. Time and time again you hear the same conservative memes--about the "takers," about "crazy liberals"--from people who can't show that facts or evidence back their positions. I personally think, based on my study of history, there was a time when conservatives and liberals proved an essential counterpoint to one another. I think that now, greed and corporate power have infiltrated the Republican party so heavily, it's become little more than the Corporatists' Defense Fund. I almost never hear any conservative ideas any more that bear up to even the least investigation of their merits.
Welfare cheats, perpetual students, criminals--none of them are the reason people are suffering through longer workdays for less income or economic security. As a liberal, I'm no more a fan of the scummy people who try to lie and cheat their way through the system than any conservative. I just know that the ones whose scumminess most affect me are the people at the top, not the bottom. It seems to me that so many conservatives would rather make sure that people at the bottom of society are punished than to change things so everyone can do better. This hatred and desire to punish the weak, while sucking up to people with authority and power, is easily manipulated. There's a stupid spitefulness that's leading us all as we race to the bottom.
As much as I like Walker, I thought the measly 300M in cuts to the UW system was a joke. It should have been at least double that. Anyone that takes the time to read through their budget can find at least 25% waste.
Just like the measly contributions he asked the public workers to start paying. It was a good start but now it's time for a reality check and make them pay their fair share like the rest of us. And don't get me started on the cops and firefighters......
Why do they have to "turn off the spigot" if that's where they're happy? Why do adults need to stop learning if it's a fulfilling experience for them?
I despise anti-intellectual arguments. In extrema, that's how you get disasters like Pol Pot, Biafra, Afghanistan, and Mississippi.
It's not "anti-intellectual", it's acknowledging that there may be limits, especially financial, to the pursuit of endless, PAID education. Learning can still occur, on a daily basis, without having to put oneself in debt for decades to come..
TRlaura, do you have any facts to base your claims upon? No, it's just the typical stupid, hateful conservative rhetoric. Cops and firefighters get paid too much, you say. How much is too much for the next life that might be saved by them? Even cops and firefighters in places with good union protection hardly live the lavish lifestyles that others do who provide much less essential functions to society. The university is a bloated waste, you say. Do you realize that these cuts mean layoffs for the working people you claim to care about? That the university system puts more value back into the economy than it takes out? That it attracts business? Trust me, the kinds of businesses that will be attracted to WI if the university is gutted and workers lose more rights are not the kind that are going to be paying more wages. Just look at the South, the exploitative coal companies that made a profit off the backs of miners and fled, leaving environmental destruction and poverty in their path. That's what Walker and the Koch brothers want for your--and soon to be my--state.
I care because I'm moving to Madison in a week. My boyfriend and I looked into Madison and the Twin Cities and chose Madison knowing full well that the political situation in Wisconsin is much worse than that of Minnesota right now. We made the choice we did regardless because we like Madison. We like Wisconsin. My boyfriend has roots in northeastern WI. We like the culture and history of the state. I am choosing to move out of the Southeast, where I grew up, because I finally realized I would always be at odds with Southern culture as long as I am here. Wisconsin, historically, has a culture that reflects my values, which include education and workers' rights.
It is my hope that Walker will keep digging himself under and there will be a backlash. Some of the ideology spouted by Walker supporters strikes me as similar to what I'd hear in defense of such a candidate in the Southeast, where workers are supposed to "just be grateful they have a job," to accept poor wages and working conditions, and to accept the presence of an elite that gets most of the benefit of the workers' labor.
I don't think this ideology reflects traditional Wisconsin values. I'm not just talking about liberal Madison, but the whole state. Chet tells me proudly about how where he's from (NE WI / UP), it's just as rural and working class as the places I grew up, but people are more politically informed, support unions and labor protection, and aren't obsessed about each other's religious beliefs. We've both seen that changing, which I can't help but attribute to the spread of national conservative rhetoric that's dumbing everyone down to think like Southerners think... And as my boyfriend likes to point out, Southerners have been on the wrong side of history, again and again.
The sad thing is, at the end of the day, I believe we all want the same thing--to be able to work and earn a living with dignity. We all want workers to be compensated for their labor instead of exploited. Yet passions and political alignments drive people into emotional arguments instead of dispassionate examination of what actually works or not. Nationwide, the economic success or failure of different states and localities serve as empirical evidence for the effects of certain policies. Again and again, it's proven that austerity practices such as cutting funds for education do not generate wealth. Certain investments generate more wealth than they require to fund. Research has shown this is the case for the UW system, and yet people line up behind Walker saying that the cuts he's making will improve the economy. Look at other states too--it's clear that refusing to raise, or even maintain, taxes on the wealthiest members of society is what leads to deficits. States and cities that have raised taxes on high earners while maintaining funding for public services are on average doing well, while those that give tax breaks to the wealthy and cut public services are on average doing poorly.
Now--people hate the *idea* of taxing wealth or income, seeing it as tantamount to stealing. But, again, it's not that simple. There's no magic market god who says that people will get paid exactly what they're worth, as if it were tabulated on some calculator in the sky. People get paid what we decide they're worth, due to the rules and laws we put in place. We've decided as a society that it is OK for CEOs to earn 300x what their employees do. We've decided that Wall Street hooligans who do nothing for society, who play games with imaginary money, deserve lavish lifestyles, while the police, teachers, and public service workers we need for a safe, functional society can barely scrape by. I don't have a problem with some people earning more than others, I have a problem with more and more money being concentrated at the very top of society. And I don't believe, from personal experience, that these wealthy folks work harder than the rest of us--the fact is, a lot of them coast along due to connections or inheritance. We say we value work, but we lie--we don't pay the hardest workers the most. Especially not when we strip unions of their power to represent workers.
I am so tired of the level of political discourse in our country. Time and time again you hear or read streams of ad hominem attacks without substance or evidence to back up arguments. Time and time again you hear the same conservative memes--about the "takers," about "crazy liberals"--from people who can't show that facts or evidence back their positions. I personally think, based on my study of history, there was a time when conservatives and liberals proved an essential counterpoint to one another. I think that now, greed and corporate power have infiltrated the Republican party so heavily, it's become little more than the Corporatists' Defense Fund. I almost never hear any conservative ideas any more that bear up to even the least investigation of their merits.
Welfare cheats, perpetual students, criminals--none of them are the reason people are suffering through longer workdays for less income or economic security. As a liberal, I'm no more a fan of the scummy people who try to lie and cheat their way through the system than any conservative. I just know that the ones whose scumminess most affect me are the people at the top, not the bottom. It seems to me that so many conservatives would rather make sure that people at the bottom of society are punished than to change things so everyone can do better. This hatred and desire to punish the weak, while sucking up to people with authority and power, is easily manipulated. There's a stupid spitefulness that's leading us all as we race to the bottom.
Very good post. When I lived in WI, I lived in Madison, and the entire community greatly benefited from having UW there. Ironically, I didn't really feel the influence of the state capital all that much..
Madison is a great place to live, but as you mentioned, Minnesota is doing much better these days, has a Dem governor and two strongly Dem US senators, and a strong, growing economy. It also has , like Wisconsin ( historically), a strongly progressive bent to it. And it feels quite a bit like WI, too. Either choice would have been a good one..
I will admit, though, that there are those who spend too much time in academia, often as a way to avoid the "real world". I have met, and read about, people who enroll in more degree programs/classes that will not increase their employability, while putting themselves further and further in debt. You do have to learn when it's time to turn off the spigot..
This actually happened to me. I went to school on & off for years & switched my major & also added a minor. Because of the amount of credits that I had, I no longer was able to get financial aid & my tuition would've doubled. I was able to get my degree in my chosen field & timed it right so that didn't happen to me. However, if I had needed just one more class to finish my degree I would've been subject to double the tuition price. So yes, the spigot does get turned off.
My initial hunch was that posters saw a political thread & that's the reason they decided to jump in here. To do the usual political party debating.
I would go with that hunch for some of the posters on here.
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