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Old 10-26-2017, 09:41 PM
 
12 posts, read 6,886 times
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So as everyone knows, the BBC recently did a documentary on crime in the streets of Milwaukee. Its entitled Murder In Milwaukee and was done by Louis Theroux.

Of course, the usual trolls jumped all over the comment section swearing up and down that Milwaukee is a safe city and blah blah blah. But Im from Milwaukee. So I ask these people....if Milwaukee is safe, its safe compared to where? Theres only 6 or 7 cities in America that are significantly worse than Milwaukee.


Im sorry but I get so tired of these threads where an out of towner whos thinking about moving here will ask about safety, and theres always like 6 dudes who swear up and down that most of Milwaukee is safe. This simply isnt true and we should tell people the truth.


For those of you who say Milwaukee is so safe, I have a challenge for you. If this city is so safe, name 5 safe neighborhoods in the city. For our purposes, we will define neighborhood as any 10 block area within city limits. The neighborhoods you name must be within city limits and must not be shopping and nightlife districts.....they have to be places where a signifcant amount of people actually live. So 3rd ward doesn't count. And we are defining safe as a neighborhood where serious violence is rare (occuring once a month or less). Serious violence means homicides, shootings, robberies, car jackings, or stabbings.


Ill even give you a head start. I can only think of 3 or maybe 4 neighborhoods in Milwaukee where there isnt some act of serious violence at least once a month. As a matter of fact, I can only think of a few neighborhoods in Milwaukee where there isnt at least one or two shootings a month. Ill even give you a head start and tell you what they are......


Lower east side, downtown, west side around 84th & Lisbon, and some of Bayview. Those are the only neighborhoods in Milwaukee that come to my mind where serious violence is truly rare. And the only reason 84th and Lisbon is safe is because its 90% retirees around there if I remember correctly. You could count all those spots off of Good Hope, but to me those dont count as neighborhoods cuz that area goes back and forth between office buildings and tiny subdivisions and industrual parks and what not.


Im sure theres a couple of neighborhoods Im forgetting. But if there is, theres only a couple. So lets stop lying to people and telling them Milwaukee is a safe city. It isnt. The tourist spots are safe and the cops do a great job of keeping people safe at festivals and such. But is the majority of the city safe? Hell no. There's a reason we make the top 10 most dangerous city list almost every year and theres a reason weve been in the top 15 every year since like 1990 except for those few years when Chief Flynn was fudging the crime stats. As soon as he got caught doing that, we were right back in the top 10 where weve stayed ever since.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,071 posts, read 4,000,157 times
Reputation: 2482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISU-Josh View Post


For those of you who say Milwaukee is so safe, I have a challenge for you. If this city is so safe, name 5 safe neighborhoods in the city. For our purposes, we will define neighborhood as any 10 block area within city limits. The neighborhoods you name must be within city limits and must not be shopping and nightlife districts.....they have to be places where a signifcant amount of people actually live. So 3rd ward doesn't count. And we are defining safe as a neighborhood where serious violence is rare (occuring once a month or less). Serious violence means homicides, shootings, robberies, car jackings, or stabbings.


Ill even give you a head start. I can only think of 3 or maybe 4 neighborhoods in Milwaukee where there isnt some act of serious violence at least once a month. As a matter of fact, I can only think of a few neighborhoods in Milwaukee where there isnt at least one or two shootings a month. Ill even give you a head start and tell you what they are......


Lower east side, downtown, west side around 84th & Lisbon, and some of Bayview. Those are the only neighborhoods in Milwaukee that come to my mind where serious violence is truly rare. And the only reason 84th and Lisbon is safe is because its 90% retirees around there if I remember correctly. You could count all those spots off of Good Hope, but to me those dont count as neighborhoods cuz that area goes back and forth between office buildings and tiny subdivisions and industrual parks and what not.
I see neighborhoods as clusters where people live, regardless of presence or absence of office parks or nightlife.

In my view, around 33-40% of the city is "safe" (low crime), around 40% or so "unsafe" (high crime), and the remainder is in between. These figures roughly relate to geographical area as well as population.

Ultimately, though the city in aggregate may be deemed "unsafe" compared to other national cities in aggregate, Milwaukee is rather spread out, so some areas are much less prone to crime than others. Similarly, the United States ranks among the most violent of the developed nations, but obviously some parts are very violent and other parts not so much.

Anyhow, neighborhoods. I don't have time to verify stats, but here are some suggestions. My source for neighborhood names and boundaries is here:

http://ericmakes.com/wp-content/uplo...5/mkeneigh.jpg

Downer Woods
Cambridge Heights
Upper East Side
Riverside Park
Murray Hill
North Point
Lower East Side
Yankee Hill
Downtown (east section, called Juneau Town on map)
Third Ward (why would you count Downtown, but exclude Third Ward? People live there)
Harbor View
parts of Walker's Point
parts of Bay View
Fernwood
Saveland Park
Tippecanoe
Town of Lake
Wilson Park
much of Morgandale
Holler Park
Castle Manor
Clayton Crest
Gra-Ram
Copernicus Park
Goldman Park
Maitland Park
College Heights
Mount Olivet
Alverno
Jackson Park
the 17 neighborhoods west of Alverno and Jackson Park (don't feel like typing them out)
Story Hill
the 5 or so neighborhoods west of Story Hill
maybe Hawthorn Glen/Valley Forge
parts of Washington Heights
Mount Mary and several of the areas near it
many parts of several of the northwestern neighborhoods on the map
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:20 PM
 
12 posts, read 6,886 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
I see neighborhoods as clusters where people live, regardless of presence or absence of office parks or nightlife.

In my view, around 33-40% of the city is "safe" (low crime), around 40% or so "unsafe" (high crime), and the remainder is in between. These figures roughly relate to geographical area as well as population.

Ultimately, though the city in aggregate may be deemed "unsafe" compared to other national cities in aggregate, Milwaukee is rather spread out, so some areas are much less prone to crime than others. Similarly, the United States ranks among the most violent of the developed nations, but obviously some parts are very violent and other parts not so much.

Anyhow, neighborhoods. I don't have time to verify stats, but here are some suggestions. My source for neighborhood names and boundaries is here:

http://ericmakes.com/wp-content/uplo...5/mkeneigh.jpg

Downer Woods
Cambridge Heights
Upper East Side
Riverside Park
Murray Hill
North Point
Lower East Side
Yankee Hill
Downtown (east section, called Juneau Town on map)
Third Ward (why would you count Downtown, but exclude Third Ward? People live there)
Harbor View
parts of Walker's Point
parts of Bay View
Fernwood
Saveland Park
Tippecanoe
Town of Lake
Wilson Park
much of Morgandale
Holler Park
Castle Manor
Clayton Crest
Gra-Ram
Copernicus Park
Goldman Park
Maitland Park
College Heights
Mount Olivet
Alverno
Jackson Park
the 17 neighborhoods west of Alverno and Jackson Park (don't feel like typing them out)
Story Hill
the 5 or so neighborhoods west of Story Hill
maybe Hawthorn Glen/Valley Forge
parts of Washington Heights
Mount Mary and several of the areas near it
many parts of several of the northwestern neighborhoods on the map

Again, we are deeming a safe neighborhood in Milwaukee as one that is at least ten blocks long and completely within city limits. Also, we are describing a safe neighborhood has a ten block area that has less than 1 homicide, carjacking, robbery, stabbing, or shooting a month. Most of those places you listed do not qualify. Plus some of them aren'tneighborhoods at all. Theyre industrial parks and such. Im looking at ten block areas that are mostly residential, though I include downtown cuz downtown has enough residents to be considered a neighborhood.

Also, I should have said this earlier, Im not counting the far south side neighborhoods. Because most of those neighborhoods are partial burbs. Driving east or west on Howard, Grange, or any of them other streets down there, and you pretty much go in and out of Milwaukee city limits every 4 blocks or so. Same situation when you drive north or south down there. So a cruise along Grange will bring you in and out of city limits like 5 times between like 13th and like 60th. So yeah to me thats all burbs down there.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,071 posts, read 4,000,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISU-Josh View Post
Again, we are deeming a safe neighborhood in Milwaukee as one that is at least ten blocks long and completely within city limits. Also, we are describing a safe neighborhood has a ten block area that has less than 1 homicide, carjacking, robbery, stabbing, or shooting a month. Most of those places you listed do not qualify. Plus some of them aren'tneighborhoods at all. Theyre industrial parks and such. Im looking at ten block areas that are mostly residential, though I include downtown cuz downtown has enough residents to be considered a neighborhood.
A lot of those neighborhoods I listed are small because they're urban or partly urban, not classically suburban. If you'd like, you can combine some of the smaller neighborhoods together in order to achieve the 10 block X 10 block requirement you've set. For example, the Mount Mary areas I mentioned, parts of Granville (comprising a few of the northwest neighborhoods), the flank of neighborhoods starting with Story Hill and going west. I believe these areas would fit your crime, etc. criteria.

But if you're looking for Brookfield-style or North-Shore-style "neighborhoods" (integrated residential communities that take up large swaths of land), no, you won't find too much of that within the city. This is because many of the neighborhoods are small and reflect high density (vertical living versus horizontal distribution of population), or are small and reflect historical urban settlement patterns (immigration settlements, etc.) or geographical isolates (i.e., parkside neighborhoods). This is what makes cities cities.

Quote:
Also, I should have said this earlier, Im not counting the far south side neighborhoods. Because most of those neighborhoods are partial burbs. Driving east or west on Howard, Grange, or any of them other streets down there, and you pretty much go in and out of Milwaukee city limits every 4 blocks or so. Same situation when you drive north or south down there. So a cruise along Grange will bring you in and out of city limits like 5 times between like 13th and like 60th. So yeah to me thats all burbs down there.
So, you're looking for suburban-style (10 x 10) swaths of neighborhood land within the city, but are not willing to count the areas that are most suburban? And you're not willing to count a high-density, ultra-urban, vertical neighborhood such as the Third Ward? That's a good way of swinging the results to the anti-Milwaukee conclusion you've postulated.

The Saveland Park, Tippecanoe, Jackson Park, etc. sections of Milwaukee are very urbanized but yes, also rather suburban. Still, they are distinct from the adjacent suburbs. Excluding them from consideration is rather odd to me. Given that logic, you shouldn't count any of the peripheral neighborhoods elsewhere in the city for the same reason: Bay View, the far west side, the far north and northwestern areas, the upper east side, and perhaps even the lower east side.

Perhaps you should have stated your message more clearly: you want to know about large, full-shaped (10 x 10), low-crime, residential areas that are not adjacent to inner-ring suburbs. But virtually all of the low-crime neighborhoods in the city share at least some border with an adjacent suburb.

To answer that question, the only possibilities I might consider include parts of Sherman Park and the two Menomonee River neighborhoods in NW Milwaukee. I'm not sure about the 10 x 10 rule for Sherman Park--probably not because it's not a perfect square or rectangle. The Menomonee neighborhoods (the NW midsection between Good Hope and Mill) may qualify in spite of the fact that they feature some industrial areas mixed in with residential areas.

Ultimately, the criteria you set forth are challenging, even for some very prosperous cities. I don't know of too many large U.S. cities with 5 (or more) distinct, non-peripheral 10 x 10 (or greater) "low crime/high safety" neighborhoods. There are some, but not many.

Last edited by Empidonax; 10-27-2017 at 07:31 AM..
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:31 AM
 
32,716 posts, read 22,656,169 times
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10 blocks (squared), or even 10x1 is a gigantic area... I would expect ANY city of any reasonable size to have at least one serious crime a year in that large an area... and in many cities I've lived, 10 square blocks is usually multiple neighborhoods.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,071 posts, read 4,000,157 times
Reputation: 2482
A couple of other things you mention strike me as interesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISU-Josh View Post

Of course, the usual trolls jumped all over the comment section swearing up and down that Milwaukee is a safe city and blah blah blah. But Im from Milwaukee. So I ask these people....if Milwaukee is safe, its safe compared to where? Theres only 6 or 7 cities in America that are significantly worse than Milwaukee.
If the people who uncritically say that Milwaukee is an unconditionally safe city are trolls, do you also think that the "Milwaukee is unconditionally a dangerous city" folks are trolls, as well?

The reality is that Milwaukee, like most cities, is either safe or dangerous depending on the neighborhood. Some realistic specificity goes a long way here.


Quote:
Im sorry but I get so tired of these threads where an out of towner whos thinking about moving here will ask about safety, and theres always like 6 dudes who swear up and down that most of Milwaukee is safe. This simply isnt true and we should tell people the truth.
Most of Milwaukee? No. But some areas, yes.

Quote:
For those of you who say Milwaukee is so safe, I have a challenge for you. If this city is so safe, name 5 safe neighborhoods in the city.
As I pointed out in another post, I think that there are more than 5 that could qualify. But why do you need five? In order to make a proper recommendation to an out-of-towner, all you really need is one good neighborhood to recommend.

Quote:
For our purposes, we will define neighborhood as any 10 block area within city limits.
Apparently, not "any" such area, because the south side doesn't count now.


Quote:
Im sure theres a couple of neighborhoods Im forgetting. But if there is, theres only a couple. So lets stop lying to people and telling them Milwaukee is a safe city. It isnt. The tourist spots are safe and the cops do a great job of keeping people safe at festivals and such. But is the majority of the city safe? Hell no.
I agree that the "majority" of inhabited space in the city is high-crime, but it is dishonest to imply that only the tourist areas and festival areas are safe.

Quote:
There's a reason we make the top 10 most dangerous city list almost every year and theres a reason weve been in the top 15 every year since like 1990 except for those few years when Chief Flynn was fudging the crime stats. As soon as he got caught doing that, we were right back in the top 10 where weve stayed ever since.
This is why, whenever possible, it's best to live in the safer parts of the city. In my view, that's about 33% of the geographical area of the city (not counting large industrial zones). So, not a majority, but something is something.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:46 AM
 
12 posts, read 6,886 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
A lot of those neighborhoods I listed are small because they're urban or partly urban, not classically suburban. If you'd like, you can combine some of the smaller neighborhoods together in order to achieve the 10 block X 10 block requirement you've set. For example, the Mount Mary areas I mentioned, parts of Granville (comprising a few of the northwest neighborhoods), the flank of neighborhoods starting with Story Hill and going west. I believe these areas would fit your crime, etc. criteria.

But if you're looking for Brookfield-style or North-Shore-style "neighborhoods" (integrated residential communities that take up large swaths of land), no, you won't find too much of that within the city. This is because many of the neighborhoods are small and reflect high density (vertical living versus horizontal distribution of population), or are small and reflect historical urban settlement patterns (immigration settlements, etc.) or geographical isolates (i.e., parkside neighborhoods). This is what makes cities cities.



So, you're looking for suburban-style (10 x 10) swaths of neighborhood land within the city, but are not willing to count the areas that are most suburban? And you're not willing to count a high-density, ultra-urban, vertical neighborhood such as the Third Ward? That's a good way of swinging the results to the anti-Milwaukee conclusion you've postulated.

The Saveland Park, Tippecanoe, Jackson Park, etc. sections of Milwaukee are very urbanized but yes, also rather suburban. Still, they are distinct from the adjacent suburbs. Excluding them from consideration is rather odd to me. Given that logic, you shouldn't count any of the peripheral neighborhoods elsewhere in the city for the same reason: Bay View, the far west side, the far north and northwestern areas, the upper east side, and perhaps even the lower east side.

Perhaps you should have stated your message more clearly: you want to know about large, full-shaped (10 x 10), low-crime, residential areas that are not adjacent to inner-ring suburbs. But virtually all of the low-crime neighborhoods in the city share at least some border with an adjacent suburb.

To answer that question, the only possibilities I might consider include parts of Sherman Park and the two Menomonee River neighborhoods in NW Milwaukee. I'm not sure about the 10 x 10 rule for Sherman Park--probably not because it's not a perfect square or rectangle. The Menomonee neighborhoods (the NW midsection between Good Hope and Mill) may qualify in spite of the fact that they feature some industrial areas mixed in with residential areas.

Ultimately, the criteria you set forth are challenging, even for some very prosperous cities. I don't know of too many large U.S. cities with 5 (or more) distinct, non-peripheral 10 x 10 (or greater) "low crime/high safety" neighborhoods. There are some, but not many.

I understand your frustration with my far south side rule. But as I stated the opener, neighborhood is 10 blocks within city limits. Rarely will you find ten consecutive blocks all within city limits on the far south side. Once you get south of even Oklahoma, you fade in and out of city limits every few blocks or so. So there just isnt a ten block area that I can think of down there thats truly all Milwaukee


But Im not trying to be a jerk about this. If there really is a ten block stetch down there thats all within city limits, totally include it. I will admit I missed that in this situation. But you cant honestly expect me to include every random subdivison in the city thats caught between a couple of business parks lol.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:52 AM
 
12 posts, read 6,886 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
10 blocks (squared), or even 10x1 is a gigantic area... I would expect ANY city of any reasonable size to have at least one serious crime a year in that large an area... and in many cities I've lived, 10 square blocks is usually multiple neighborhoods.
I said once a month.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:55 AM
 
32,716 posts, read 22,656,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISU-Josh View Post
I said once a month.

Even that. 10square blocks is HUGE. One a week wouldn't make me blink an eye in that large an area.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,071 posts, read 4,000,157 times
Reputation: 2482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISU-Josh View Post
I understand your frustration with my far south side rule. But as I stated the opener, neighborhood is 10 blocks within city limits. Rarely will you find ten consecutive blocks all within city limits on the far south side. Once you get south of even Oklahoma, you fade in and out of city limits every few blocks or so. So there just isnt a ten block area that I can think of down there thats truly all Milwaukee
Your point about vague city limits isn't entirely true for all south side neighborhoods--just google Tippecanoe, Saveland Park, Jackson Park, and the others and see the maps for yourself. You have plenty of contiguous and straightforward City of Milwaukee neighborhoods there. In fact, the neighborhoods map I posted illustrates this quite well.

Quote:
But Im not trying to be a jerk about this. If there really is a ten block stetch down there thats all within city limits, totally include it. I will admit I missed that in this situation. But you cant honestly expect me to include every random subdivison in the city thats caught between a couple of business parks lol.
For a 10 x 10 requirement, probably not, but that's a rather imposing criterion anyhow.
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