Milwaukee Fire Department (Appleton, Howard, West Milwaukee: how much, home, transfer)
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One guy told me that an alderman said that the firefighters firefighters are a flat out waste of money. He also said that they are overpaid and under worked. No idea how this can make sense when the starting pay is $34k .
What's the aldermans name , I'll personally pin a medal on him.
Firefighters work usually work three days straight, 4 days off. I knew of a few rank and file firefighters who had business on the side, contractors, snow shoveling and one guy who owned real estate and was a milliionaire. When I drove by a firehouse in Milwaukee , everytime the firefighters were sitting outside on a lawn chair , or I would see a gang of them buying groceries. or you see a firetruck with five firefighters driving by to rush off to a some guy keeled over with heat stroke. As part of a job, I had to visit a fire station in Oregon, the only thing they were doing was lifting weights and cooking a gourmet meal. In the city of Wauwatosa when I lived there , I called the fire department once inquiring about a possible freon leak in the air conditioning. The chief said "I'll send someone over". He sent over a big fire truck with two uniformed firefighters for something that was not a freon leak. why he sent that truck over is beyond me.
I have been in union positions, and part of a union (as well as non union government jobs) is to inadvertantly protect people who abuse the system, and make sure they do the mininum work for max pay. This is never overtly stated , but it's in effect what happens. There was an article a while ago about prison guards in Wisconsin who manipulating the system to get max in overtime, and this kind of thing happens all the time
I know of people who bought condos in Milwaukee two ,three years ago and who want to get out, a big reason is when they get sticker shock from the property tax bill. They can't sell them, and having high taxes doesn't help. Not only the fire department , but other areas of city gov should be cut as well, for there own survival
The reality is this, the population of milwaukee is shrinking, the economy is in a deep recession, and there is only so much money to go around. If the city doesn't get things straightened out in the present, they will end up like the auto industry in the future.
Look, I don't want to get into an emotional argument with the "Tell me that when your house is burning." I don't think you're reading my posts, there were 166 individuals that made over $80,000 in 2007. One hundred and sixty six! Many many more who made over $70,000. So there are about 500 people on payroll that make at least double what a new hire does. There could be more new hires, but greed is preventing that.
If the guys who do the actual work are paid meager wages, who are these people getting the big bucks? I think $35000 is too low for a fireman. But don't beg to the bankrupt city to raise your wages, go tell your union that you want the bigshots to take a cut so the new hires can live comfortably. The union is the true reason you don't have the number of guys per truck you request. The department needs to take some accountability and stop blaming the city for its financial deficiencies.
This is how the world works.
Infantry gets paid ****, but they do the grunt work. The top brass is air conditioned and out of harm's way. The most rotten jobs are at the bottom. It's about accountability, responsibility, and strategy. In any job, the grunts always say that they do all the work, but the upper echelon people are the ones that run the show. Without leadership, the inexperienced grunts would be all over the place. Voice of experience here.
IMO, you're just taking shots at people making higher salaries because they make higher salaries and aren't inhaling as much smoke.
Out of curiosity, what do you do? And for how long?
Last edited by 43north87west; 01-29-2009 at 08:42 AM..
What's the aldermans name , I'll personally pin a medal on him.
Firefighters work usually work three days straight, 4 days off. I knew of a few rank and file firefighters who had business on the side, contractors, snow shoveling and one guy who owned real estate and was a milliionaire. When I drove by a firehouse in Milwaukee , everytime the firefighters were sitting outside on a lawn chair , or I would see a gang of them buying groceries. or you see a firetruck with five firefighters driving by to rush off to a some guy keeled over with heat stroke. As part of a job, I had to visit a fire station in Oregon, the only thing they were doing was lifting weights and cooking a gourmet meal. In the city of Wauwatosa when I lived there , I called the fire department once inquiring about a possible freon leak in the air conditioning. The chief said "I'll send someone over". He sent over a big fire truck with two uniformed firefighters for something that was not a freon leak. why he sent that truck over is beyond me.
I have been in union positions, and part of a union (as well as non union government jobs) is to inadvertantly protect people who abuse the system, and make sure they do the mininum work for max pay. This is never overtly stated , but it's in effect what happens. There was an article a while ago about prison guards in Wisconsin who manipulating the system to get max in overtime, and this kind of thing happens all the time
I know of people who bought condos in Milwaukee two ,three years ago and who want to get out, a big reason is when they get sticker shock from the property tax bill. They can't sell them, and having high taxes doesn't help. Not only the fire department , but other areas of city gov should be cut as well, for there own survival
The reality is this, the population of milwaukee is shrinking, the economy is in a deep recession, and there is only so much money to go around. If the city doesn't get things straightened out in the present, they will end up like the auto industry in the future.
Most of the time they have stuff to do until dinner. It's a little less often for Milwaukee because they are a large city and run calls all day. When they can take a breather, they do. Smaller cities never get breaks.
Tosa sent a truck because that's all they can send. Did you want a small car or something? The equipment was on the truck and they need to have it with the personnel at all times. If there is a fire or something else goes wrong, they need it there.
What's the aldermans name , I'll personally pin a medal on him.
Firefighters work usually work three days straight, 4 days off. I knew of a few rank and file firefighters who had business on the side, contractors, snow shoveling and one guy who owned real estate and was a milliionaire. When I drove by a firehouse in Milwaukee , everytime the firefighters were sitting outside on a lawn chair , or I would see a gang of them buying groceries.
I don't understand why owning a side business or being a millionaire should exclude a person from any job. It's a free country, and there is no law against moonlighting or having extra money. I would be particularly annoyed if an employer told me I had too much money, or that I had to sell my company because I wasn't allowed to own an unrelated business.
Besides that, having to work 3 days on is a lot. That's what firefighters are paid for. Whether they're allowed to sleep on the job or not, is totally immaterial. They are required to be awake when needed, at any time. It's like many other jobs. Sometimes it's slow and you get paid for doing very little. Other times, it's busy and you don't get paid nearly enough for what you do. But this has no bearing on salaries or union contracts. This is purely a lifestyle issue, and you're using anecdotal claims of witnessing laziness to prove a point.
I'm also fairly certain you didn't "drive by a firehouse" every hour of every day of the year. Even when I lived in Fox Point, the NSFD was in and out of the nearest firehouse frequently. I don't know what they were doing or where they were being called out to, but lights and sirens says there is an emergency of some sort. And that was the North Shore, where fires are about as common as snow in July. So yeah, sometimes they were barbecuing behind the firehouse, but other times they probably had a late dinner, or missed it entirely.
Last edited by 43north87west; 01-29-2009 at 09:32 AM..
I don't understand why owning a side business or being a millionaire should exclude a person from any job. .
I didn't say that at all. Firefighters and teachers in particular have the type of position that has the luxury of being structured where they can run a side business . the average person on the street who works 9-5 m-f, makes 35k a year doesn't have the luxury of doing that... you need daytime hours available usually, and you also need a lot energy. It's like college professors sometimes make a lot of money on the side doing consultant work or get royalties from a book they wrote, it's the way there job is structured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west
Besides that, having to work 3 days on is a lot. That's what firefighters are paid for. .
Yes, and it obvioulsy makes the most sense. I believe by FAA regulations airline pilots can't work more than 20 hours per week. They also technically get paid for sleeping in a hotel as well. Fine by me, the last thing I want is a pilot who is overworked and who's reflexes are not as sharp when he is about to land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west
I'm also fairly certain you didn't "drive by a firehouse" every hour of every day of the year. .
of course not, I also have not been in a fire either. These are just the collection of experiences I have witnessed on a fairly consistant basis.
with more sprinkler systems , new technologies , old buildings being gutted, improved fire code etc it would point in the direction that there would be less chance of fires. I am willing to bet that statistically that there are less fire emergencies than back 25 years ago.
The point is that the situation isn't as dire as you would be lead to believe by other people with a vested interest, and in the current economic times with a city shrinking, and many people in much more tough situations, your going to have a harder time convincing the public of the "overworked, underpaid" civil servant. Granted there are some (like the unemployment office now) but the fire department and other city departments certainly are not one of them
Yes, and it obvioulsy makes the most sense. I believe by FAA regulations airline pilots can't work more than 20 hours per week. They also technically get paid for sleeping in a hotel as well. Fine by me, the last thing I want is a pilot who is overworked and who's reflexes are not as sharp when he is about to land.
The bottom line is, experience can be--and is--bought.
It's complicated with pilots, but I'm glad you brought it up because it travels full circle back to MidwestAir's opinion about the guys doing all the work making the least amount of money. There is a lot of truth to that. Not to go too far off topic, but this can paint a good picture of how pay and hours worked, can differ.
Without digging out the FAR and looking it up, I'm pretty sure that the limits for pilots are:
No more than:
1000 hours per year
100 hours per month
30 hours in 7 days
8 hours per duty period
There are additional requirements about mandatory rest and duty time that vary between part 121/135 carriers (135 being commuter, with additional flight hours available). Company rules may limit hours also.
Now, this is an important comparison which plays into the topic of firefighter pay. Pilots can FLY 8 hours a day. Pilots only get paid for flight time, and a per diem when not flying. But that's not getting paid to stay in a hotel, it's getting reimbursed for meals and that kind of thing. (The hotel is covered.) But the 8 hour flight time is only part of the story. The duty period is what really matters. Pilots, while flying (getting paid) up to 8 hours a day, can rack up 16 hours of continuous duty time in one day. That changes the picture around quite a bit, especially the lower paid ones. So "working 80 hours a month" means "flying 80 hours a month", but working as much as 50 and 60 hours per week. For the junior commuter pilots making $30k a year, this really sucks. And they are fatigued, sometimes terribly fatigued. Especially the commuter pilots.
I see it no different with firefighters. Paying for someone to be on-site 24/7 for one or more days at a time, with random interruptions and a certain element of danger at times, is not paying someone for a normal 8 hour a day job.
Like firefighters and most other fields, pilots make more, the more seniority they have. One could argue that the senior pilots with long routes of 7 or 8 hours, probably work much less than the commuter pilots taking off and landing all day long in crowded airspace. Pay is about the experience, not the number of times they raise and lower the landing gear per day, or in the case of firefighters, how many times they respond to calls 24 hours a day. Senior pilots have years--decades--of experience. They have more responsibility, and without a doubt, a much better toolbox to use when something unusual takes place.
Last edited by 43north87west; 01-29-2009 at 07:43 PM..
This whole thing is in reference to the city of Milwaukee, not any small suburbs. The fact is (at 2007 rates) it takes 166 people paid $80,000 or more to administer a fire department in a mid sized city. If these 166 individuals each took a $10,000 pay cut (que eye roll), they could hire 47 full time entry level firefighters at $35,000/year. There probably is a fringe benefits cost that would lower this number. But even if the department could hire 35 new firemen by taking a $10,000 cut, our city would be so much safer. That is the argument they make year after year. That's why the union sends out 50 guys to yell at the aldermen at city budget hearings every year, because "PEOPLE WILL DIE!" if the department doesn't get the extra cash. Why does the money always have to come out of additional taxpayer money? The way the world works is wages are frozen, especially when the economy turns sour, and people are forced to take pay cuts when there is less money available. That is, unless your in a police or fire union or a Wall Street CEO.
A strong fire department is necessary to any city, I'm not arguing that they aren't. I'm concerned with the departmental spending. It's a cost-inefficient and self-serving union system that seemingly places a greater priority on jacking up salaries for veterans, instead of public safety. There are fewer new hires and less firemen per truck as a direct result. Less guys that do actual firefighting, and life saving, but the levels remain even of those who are "administrating." Those who run the department could easily fully-staff the stations, but they will never sacrifice any of their own pay to do so, and will eternally rely on more tax revenue. This limits the amounts available for other important city services. With the amount of hard working, trained, experienced guys working on the low end, they'd have absolutely no trouble filling a higher level position even if it was cut by $10,000/year. And if 6000 want the entry job at its current salary, it's not an underpaid position.
This whole thing is in reference to the city of Milwaukee, not any small suburbs. The fact is (at 2007 rates) it takes 166 people paid $80,000 or more to administer a fire department in a mid sized city. If these 166 individuals each took a $10,000 pay cut (que eye roll), they could hire 47 full time entry level firefighters at $35,000/year.
Another aspect that you must consider, is that a lot of the higher wage earners within the department are the paramedics. Paramedics are a highly skilled group of people, who are able to administer 28 or so different medications, stick a needle in a heart, and use advanced airways to save lives.
These guys are paid a bonus each year, in keeping up with their additional responsibilities. They also must maintain a state license, and meet state requirements in order to work on a paramedic rig. This means that not just any member of the department can fill their spot; a certified, fully trained paramedic must ride the spot, and this requires an over-time hire. Since there is a limited pool of these members to draw from, more vacancies happen with more regularity, causing some people to earn more over-time money.
It’s no different than some police detectives who earn OT due to their responsibilities and job descriptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestAir
There probably is a fringe benefits cost that would lower this number. But even if the department could hire 35 new firemen by taking a $10,000 cut, our city would be so much safer.
Yes it would, absolutely. However, it is actually cheaper for the city to run with vacant positions and then place an over-time member in the actual spot on the rig. It sounds crazy, but the city doesn’t have pay benefits on the over-time, and fire department over-time is not truly over-time, meaning that it isn’t paid out at time and one-half. Due to Federal law, (FLSA) and how it relates to 24 hour municipal fire department employees, the city only needs to compensate an over-timer premium pay for actual hours worked over 204 in a 27 day work cycle.
This means that over-time shifts are paid at straight time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestAir
That's why the union sends out 50 guys to yell at the aldermen at city budget hearings every year, because "PEOPLE WILL DIE!" if the department doesn't get the extra cash.
People will die. Fewer people on each company means that more work is not getting done by individual companies, which means that more companies must then respond to accomplish the same amount of work.
A one person reduction on every company is the equivalent of a 20% work force reduction.
A first alarm assignment, consisting of 3 engines and 2 trucks has lost an entire company with a reduction of one member.
This will have a trickle down effect, that no one really knows where it will hit. Since the department runs on virtually every type of emergency in the city, current resources in the city will be taxed, causing more companies to be tied up on emergencies, they will be responding from further away, etc…
A few seconds doesn’t seem like a lot, until you can’t breath, or you’re burning up. It’s a catch phrase, but people will die with more line-cuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestAir
Why does the money always have to come out of additional taxpayer money?
Unfortunately the fire department is tax-payer funded, but I now what you mean. The city needs to clean up it’s act with waste and duplication of services across all city departments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MidwestAir
There are fewer new hires and less firemen per truck as a direct result. Less guys that do actual firefighting, and life saving, but the levels remain even of those who are "administrating."
A great point by you. Although, some chiefs are necessary in order to help with command and control at incidents.
The city needs to improve it’s efficiency in spending, but cutting the people that are tasked with performing the actual job is not the way to go.
The reality is this, the population of milwaukee is shrinking, the economy is in a deep recession, and there is only so much money to go around. If the city doesn't get things straightened out in the present, they will end up like the auto industry in the future.
The first part of your post is not worth addressing. This part though, is accurate.
The population is declining, but fire-duty is up. The country is in a recession, and that causes a rise in arson and crime. Did you ever happen to think that part of the reason the homicide rate in the city is where it is, is due to the level of service the city has from it's fire department?
Fast response times, which means someone at your door inside of 5 minutes of you picking up the phone to dial 911 90% of the time, with over 100,000 annual alarms responded to by the department. A nationally recognized EMS program, rated second to only Seattle, WA, a paramedic program that regularly participates in internationally recognized studies with pre-hospital medicine, thru the MCW all contribute to a lot of people that are shot or stabbed, and survive.
How about foreclosed homes, people in debt, etc... in the 1980's it was arson for profit, it is now arson for survival.
The city of Milwaukee has several thousand building fires annually. Most are non-descriptive and unworthy of news coverage because again, a fast response coupled with proper staffing has kept many to a minimum.
This has also contributed to the city's relatively low fire-death rate for civilians.
Fires are still a huge issue in this city. Building proximity is also a huge issue, especially in the central city. It doesn't take much for a fire to spread from one building to the next, when they are less than four or five feet apart.
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